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Re:Adversarial Collaboration by lapcat on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:16PM (#32978966)
> If someone is a member of a group, it is almost not worth listening to their arguments, especially arguments in support of views held strongly by that group.

Who isn't a member of a group? We're all members of a number of groups.

It's refreshing that Kahneman honestly admits that he doesn't change his mind either, and his tastes were formed when he was relatively young. He's not putting himself above the rest of humanity. He could easily say, "Well I'm a famous and distinguished scientist, so obviously my beliefs are rational, unlike everyone else", but he doesn't.

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by eloff on Monday September 26, 2022 @12:11AM (#32979330)
Maybe I'm uncommon in this aspect, but I don't feel like I'm a member of many groups. I'm not religious, but don't really consider myself an atheist. I'm not for any particular party. I don't care about sports. I'm Canadian, but don't live there and don't feel like I belong there either. I suppose you could say I'm part of the group of Caucasian males by birth or part of the group of software engineers by trade, but I don't think those are "real" groups with many ideas in common. Maybe I just am not aware of which ideas I get from those groups.
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by marcosdumay on Monday September 26, 2022 @04:29AM (#32980738)
> I'm not religious, but don't really consider myself an atheist.

Oh, an agnostic.

There is something to be said about groups of people that hold similar ideas because their similar way of thinking lead them to similar conclusions. It's a very important exception to the OP's description, where the group came first, and may even be the most common kind.

(Of course, the question to answer is why do those people think in similar ways.)

> part of the group of software engineers by trade

I'd bet that one lead you into adopting some values.

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by eloff on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:50AM (#32981489)
I probably inherited some values from the group of software engineers, but it's not a well defined group. Can you point to any values we might have in common? I would say a love of logic and the scientific method, but even that isn't universal. I don't find software engineers much more logical than other people of comparable intelligence.
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by marcosdumay on Monday September 26, 2022 @11:25AM (#32984346)
Yep, some adoration of logic and control, even if not applied. But those were probably there first.

You probably also have some abhorrence towards formal chaos (the ones that causes unpredictability; many are not even able to accept it exists) and want to improve every system (simple or not) you see.

On the more traditionally politics kinds of thing, you probably value freedom of expression to a very high amount, like other highly educated groups, but also probably value personal freedom and personal initiative. Those often come in an intensity that leads to some bullshit levels of belief in self-determination (like in not believing you share group values) and personal responsibility; but beliefs change faster than values, and many people tame those down with time.

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by jiggawatts on Monday September 26, 2022 @01:48AM (#32979831)
Same here. Something I always find hilarious is conversations with people who's opinions are very polarised due to their membership in groups. For example, I have a friends that are variously: a Christian priest, libertarian, anti-vaxxers, and Trump supporters.

Invariably, in every discussion, they'll trot out this sentence: "You <opponent group name> people always think <notion>".

For example: "You Liberal party voters always support lowering taxes" or somesuch sentence.

I point out that I didn't vote for the Liberal party.

"The Labour party voters are the same!"

I point out I didn't vote for Labour either in the most recent election either.

"Err..."

-- at this point their brain locks up, because they're expecting a tribe-vs-tribe fight and they have no idea what to do when they discover I don't actually belong to their "enemy tribe".

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by YurgenJurgensen on Monday September 26, 2022 @11:18AM (#32984247)
You're lucky to have avoided encounters with the more advanced tribalists then. Most of the more engaged members of these groups will already have a prepared retort that insinuates that anyone not an active member of $THEIR_TRIBE is by necessity part of $OTHER_TRIBE.
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by tmnvix on Monday September 26, 2022 @12:30AM (#32979442)
I think this is not at all uncommon. I am largely in the same boat and assumed this was the 'de facto norm' amongst my peers as a teen (90s NZ), but it's interesting to consider that groups are often defined by what they are not.
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by lazide on Monday September 26, 2022 @10:23AM (#32983483)
That just means you’re being willfully blind to the groups, not that you aren’t a member.

Even saying you’re !group makes you explicitly a member of the !group group!

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by watwut on Monday September 26, 2022 @01:56AM (#32979878)
The exact same thingbhappens with groups like programming team or sports club.
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by sooyoo on Monday September 26, 2022 @01:11AM (#32979660)
Those with most priviledge are usually the least aware of it.

I've come to realize that "white male software engineer" is one of the groups with the highest ratio of priviledge versus priviledge awareness.

(Disclosure: I belong to that group as well.)

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by eloff on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:46AM (#32981459)
Why would you bring privilege into an unrelated discussion? Also you're assuming a lot about my background that would surprise you. I wasn't born a software engineer. I chose the field deliberately as the best way to make money, and then fell in love with it after the fact. I'm self taught, a child of immigrants. I had a typical middle class childhood.
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by sooyoo on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:37AM (#32993595)
This part:

> I don't feel like I'm a member of many groups.

And this part:

> I suppose you could say I'm part of the group of Caucasian males by birth or part of the group of software engineers by trade,

So, you are belonging to three priviledged groups. Male, Caucasian, software engineer. It's easy to overlook this group membership, since it silently represents priviledge. Those outside these groups definitely notice that they are not in them. Ask a discriminated woman, a discriminated non-white, or an amazon warehouse worker.

That's why I pointed out that it's easy to forget group membership that confers priviledge.

> Also you're assuming a lot about my background

No, I went by exactly the information you conveyed yourself. See above.

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by astrange on Monday September 26, 2022 @03:02AM (#32980282)
In Canada? Software engineers are traditionally not well paid there. Plus I assume gangs of other kinds of engineers are always beating you up for calling yourself an engineer without an iron ring.
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by xboxnolifes on Monday September 26, 2022 @03:15AM (#32980336)
This discussion is about ideas (or opinions), not privileges.
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by mattsahr on Monday September 26, 2022 @10:53AM (#32983901)
You're right, it's about ideas, but the original article handles the interesting case where we fail to form or handle our ideas using "reason."

> The power of reasons is an illusion. The belief will not change when the reasons are defeated.

So privilege plays an interesting role. Unaware privilege - failing to see ones own circumstances, failing to assess how we fit in the world - is almost the same thing as non-reason. I suppose there could be a class of people who are like, "I am totally privileged, and somehow I delude myself and don't notice, but in every OTHER way I am totally reasonable." That could be a subgroup. But probably not a big one?

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by didericis on Monday September 26, 2022 @12:01AM (#32979267)
The issue isn't group membership. It's what's being prioritized.

If you prioritize truth over group membership, you are more likely to see your own flaws, the flaws in others, and prevent yourself from making catastrophic errors in your inevitable ignorance.

If you prioritize group membership over truth, you are more likely to fall prey to lies that have only short term benefits for one or more members of the group and eventually lead to catastrophic errors.

The best groups are the groups of people who are legitimately pursuing the truth, even if they are temporarily ignorant, which again, is inevitable due to information constraints.

We've become so saturated with power dynamical thinking we've forgotten that it is possible to be motivated to try to see the world accurately so as to best cooperate with it regardless of power differentials.

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by ekianjo on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:46PM (#32979176)
> who isn't a member of a group? We're all members of a number of groups.

Not everyone is brainwashed to accept group think no matter in what cirles they have to evolve in.

There are individuals and then there are the parrots who mindlessly repeat what the group says.

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by drekk on Monday September 26, 2022 @12:50AM (#32979541)
Being aware of cognitive biases doesn't render you immune to them. Others shape and inform our beliefs about the world just as our own experiences do.

You might be a "rational, fully self-realized, and atomized" individual but your behaviors and thoughts are certainly influenced by those around you. Here's a simple example: https://dictionary.apa.org/social-facilitation

Re:Adversarial Collaboration by nelsondev on Monday September 26, 2022 @12:01AM (#32979274)
Re:Adversarial Collaboration by ekianjo on Monday September 26, 2022 @05:56AM (#32981186)
nice strawman that has nothing to do with the point being made