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Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by ben_w on Thursday September 22, 2022 @06:38PM (#32945532)
Without commenting on the merits or lack thereof in this case, I think it would be useful to give some more information about the FSU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Union
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by parker_mountain on Thursday September 22, 2022 @06:39PM (#32945537)
As a queer person, the second someone gets "cancelled" and starts yelling about pedophiles, it almost always means that they are anti-queer.

What a surprise that this crew seems very much in this boat.

I'm not issuing judgement on if paypal is in the right here or not (although my knee jerk reaction is that they are not), but the age-old "they're pedophiles" canard is well past dog-whistling and into trainwhistling at this point.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by LAC-Tech on Thursday September 22, 2022 @06:42PM (#32945559)
What is this, a counter dog-whistle?
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by andirk on Thursday September 22, 2022 @06:49PM (#32945629)
I call it a fog horn. In this case, I'm not hearing anything though. It may be someone with dissenting viewpoints, however hateful-seeming, or outright illegal behavior. As with most touchy subjects, I find the best path forward is to openly discuss without shutting down voices. I believe no one needs to prove they're _not_ a bigot, but one does need to prove someone else _is_ a bigot. Even that is a WIP stance for me.
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by PuppyTailWags on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:08PM (#32945814)
> As with most touchy subjects, I find the best path forward is to openly discuss without shutting down voices.

I try to follow this myself, but I do find myself giving exceptions to specific touchy subjects. For example, I don't understand how to approach a touchy subject where open discussion actually drives away people and therefore makes it an echo chamber.

For example if a gay person left a community because people were openly discussing whether or not gay people are pedophiles and advocating for the castration and torture of gay people, and that the advocating for castration and torture of gay people wasn't being shut down, I honestly think that's a totally reasonable behavior on behalf of the gay person. And I honestly would disagree that this created anything even remotely resembling a "forward path" direction.

But, in abstract, I still believe we should openly discuss touchy subject matters. I just find myself constantly running into actual application where I disagree that openly discussing a specific matter actually benefitted anyone, and found myself agreeing that the community would be healthier if specific topics of conversation were shut down.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by andirk on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:17PM (#32945889)
_most_ touchy subjects. There is no absolute. For some reason, I cannot handle a person speaking about a woman's appearance in the negative in front of her, and it's because I _think_ I am feeling her pain. I have told people to leave my house immediately for things like that. N-bombs, etc. That makes me a hypocrite, but I'm not strong enough to handle certain topics. I, myself, have accidentally said bigoted things and someone of the relevant marginalized community explains to me why it's hateful to say that, and I am so thankful for their words.
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by genewitch on Thursday September 22, 2022 @08:52PM (#32946604)
I don't know the context; with that said, are you sure you heard "hateful" and not "hurtful"? Hate is contextually charged. I know it's lost a lot of its meaning, but as someone who had a parent for whom english was a second language, I was taught not to misuse words like "hate".
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by kevingadd on Thursday September 22, 2022 @06:59PM (#32945723)
Does it really count as a dog-whistle if it's audible to nearly any living human?
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by ben_w on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:49AM (#32949831)
I think you may be overestimating human reasoning skills. I often don't even notice "arguments as soldiers"[0] in the moment, despite my interest in rationality, and that's a very easy way to get unrelated claims squished together like that.

[0] https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/arguments-as-soldiers a topic which I'm thinking about now because a few days ago I noticed half an hour too late that "you need to wear a mask while on public transport in Berlin" has shifted to the side effects of vaccines without me realising.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by blipvert on Thursday September 22, 2022 @06:46PM (#32945605)
I have yet to find an exception to your analysis.
[dead]
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by brightball on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:11PM (#32945843)
Agreed. When there’s active attempts to expose young kids to overtly sexual behavior, it’s the people yelling “over reaction” who I’m most suspicious of.

There are lines you don’t cross with kids. When people try to erase those lines it has to be called out.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by genewitch on Thursday September 22, 2022 @08:53PM (#32946613)
"children are not merely small adults."
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by ryan-c on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:11PM (#32945844)
> There's definitely something going on here that needs to be addressed.

I'm glad you agree that transphobia should be addressed!

> People aren't just making this connection for no reason.

Indeed, this rhetoric is being used for fear-mongering and scape-goating in order to distract from certain problems and/or manipulate people into voting for fascists.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by ibeckermayer on Thursday September 22, 2022 @06:45PM (#32945590)
Sounds like a great organization standing up for the principle that forms the very foundation of civilization.
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by welshwelsh on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:05PM (#32945789)
That's not what this is at all, they don't give a damn about free speech. This is just a bunch of conspiracy crazies trying to push their views and complaining when nobody wants to be associated with them.

Try writing your own article and submit it to their site. They won't publish it unless it's some right wing conspiracy bullshit. That's their right, of course: it's their platform and they get to choose what gets published, and anything they don't agree with gets "cancelled" for anyone who wants to use that moronic term.

But then they try to turn around and get their own crap published on other, more credible platforms, because otherwise nobody will read it. And of course, these platforms, such as universities and newspapers have a reputation to protect, so they aren't going to publish a bunch of nonsense.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by ploppyploppy on Friday September 23, 2022 @03:45AM (#32949092)
You're making ad hominem attacks and baseless claims.
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by origin_path on Friday September 23, 2022 @04:43AM (#32949420)
[dead]
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by d110af5ccf on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:15PM (#32945880)
> I suppose there's an argument that twitter etc are effectively "common carriers" ... I'm not sure I buy it though.

On one side of the spectrum we have your private home. Obviously your having the ability to infringe on my freedom to speak in that very specific and limited venue doesn't seem to lead to any great societal ills.

On the other side of the spectrum we have a government owned public square. I think it's clear enough that any regulation of speech there including informal coercion not to speak is quite likely to lead to significant political and social problems. Limitations on government power mitigate a lot of this but certainly not all of it.

And then we have large corporate owned properties, both online and in the physical world, where the public is more or less permitted to gather but the regular protections don't apply. Presumably the problems caused by regulating speech are related to scale. So at what point should regulation apply?

The concept of a common carrier isn't new. Twitter hosts prominent politicians from multiple large countries. It seems obvious to me that they crossed that line some point even if I don't know precisely where it lies.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by nibbleshifter on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:19PM (#32945903)
> It sounds like a bunch of folk > that are butthurt private venues don't want to listen to their racist, homophobic, or transphobic rhetoric.

Basically this.

Students Unions have the absolute right to refuse to platform people (and to oppose their platforming by the institution in which they operate), if those people being given a platform runs contrary to the wishes of the student body the Union represents.

Nobody has a right to anyone else's platform. Making people platform your views is coerced speech.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by canistista on Friday September 23, 2022 @01:35AM (#32948427)
People like you cannot understand virtue and you'll never be satisfied. you only understand violence and coercion.

"Racist" is the equivalent of the n-word but it is directed at whites.

any open forum for discussion would end with your arguments defeated so you need censorship to thrive.

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by seaourfreed on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:00PM (#32945738)
GabPay.com is a competitor to PayPal. GabPay.com protects free speech.
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by rvz on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:05PM (#32945787)
Also AlignPay [0] is another alternative.

[0] https://alignpay.com/

Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by encryptluks2 on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:12PM (#32945851)
Is GabPay associated with Gab, cause if so then no they don't. They blocked me for posting liberal viewpoints. They care about protecting right-wing racism and promoting domestic terrorism.
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by 10g1k on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:20PM (#32945912)
Yep, Gab is as intolerant as any lefty platform, just at the other end.
Re:PayPal closes account of UK's Free Speech Union without e... by canistista on Friday September 23, 2022 @01:34AM (#32948424)
wikipedia is not a source