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Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by nine_zeros on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:16PM (#32930063)
> The Fed was forced to cut rates to zero for a long time because fiscal policy was not stimulative enough.

It's not just fiscal stimulus but "how" the stimulus was applied.

It's not like the government isn't spending enough. It is spending. Until recently, all the spending went on tax credits and military.

What we need is fiscal stimulus in industries of the future. Only the current administration gets it and made it happen with the recent bill to support new energy transition.

We need more fiscal stimulus in cheap production of pills, medical practitioners, hospitals, daycare services and housing. Literally just give incentives to produce more units of these.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by fny on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:21PM (#32931672)
I'm the parent commenter, and I strongly disagree with the idea that stimulus should be directed by the federal government.

The federal government is an extremely poor resource allocator. It knows nothing about local and personal wants and needs. In my view, funding should be dolled out to individuals and maybe local governments. That way money flows from the bottom up, not top down.

The money flow is an extremely important factor: when money flows to individuals, each individual gains "votes" to allocate resources. Those votes informs how and where the economy grows at a granular level. The federal government cannot do this with any level of precision or efficiency.

If higher levels of government need money to do things, they should tax for--this includes some portion of the transfer payments. I know it sounds redundant for the government to tax money they've handed out, but I think governments need to feel the pain of working to get the money in the first place.

I'm also convinced you would dramatically reduce the amount of fraud and favoritism that occurs since decision making will end up being decentralized.

Here's a "hot take" example. The federal government funding child care is a dumb idea.

1) Not everyone needs child care.

2) Not everyone needs child care in the way the federal government wants to provide it.

3) An entire bureaucratic apparatus needs to be developed to define what child care is, what constitutes valid child care, who can provide child care, blah, blah, blah. This will be expensive to manage and will metasticize in its own way over time.

So why not just give people money to people who have young children to do whatever they want to do with it?

Maybe you add some provisions to prevent people from making babies to cash in checks, but I'm assuming writ large I can trust my fellow citizen to make better decisions about their child care than whatever "governmental apparatus" we want to create to do that for them.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by nine_zeros on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @06:24PM (#32932376)
It is exactly this thought process that is preventing good fiscal stimulus during recessions.

Well intentioned thoughts like these are a good default for the government running in cruise control - when there is no financial volatility. A stimulus is only required during a recession. In each recession, we have only allowed the Fed to print more money, which hasn't turned out well. Instead of printing this money and raising asset prices, during each recession, fiscal policy should help increase the supply of things direly in need. If a recession is causing food shortages, we don't want printed money to increase demand for food. We would do much better by literally subsidizing X units of food for the next 1 year.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by fny on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:44PM (#32933923)
How is subsidizing food producers any different than giving everyone money to buy food?

In both cases you give money to food producers and in turn they increase production. The only difference is in your case the price signal is entirely lost.

For example, say we decide to subsidize corn. In theory, the government is taking money out of your pocket and giving it to the corn farmer who in turn gives corn to you a lower cost. So you're still effectively paying more for the same damn thing, the government just did it for you! Over time a massive bureaucracy and incentive structure will grow around corn farming and special interest groups will fight to the death to make sure corn subsidies never go away. Oh, wait, that's actually the world we live in.

Now imagine I give you cash for food--not specifically corn--you get to decide which food you spend it on. Say everyone can't get enough of corn. Sure, you're right, everyone will pay more for corn the difference is though we also see the price go up instead of the government hiding it. This price signal is very important. Once the price of corn gets too high for you, you will switch to some other food, and in turn different areas of the economy will be stimulated.

Food subsidies are exactly how you get big agriculture. Certain players know how to play the government game better and take advantage of it.

If I give everyone money, sure prices go up, but everyone has gained voting power against existing institutional players, and in my opinion, that is exactly how you get competition and growth.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by nine_zeros on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @10:15PM (#32934110)
> How is subsidizing food producers any different than giving everyone money to buy food?

Subsidizing production by incentivizing number of units is different from just creating demand and waiting for producers to match up.

By incentivizing number of units of production, say x% incentive for per 1000 bushels of corn AFTER 10k bushels, you are literally incentivizing production of food and suppressing prices. You are asking farmers to use as much land as possible to produce corn. This is assuming that there is a shortage of corn in the market. In this way, the market is flooded with cheap corn and prevents recession caused by corn. The benefit of this approach is that something useful actually got produced besides money.

By only creating demand, production is not guaranteed to ramp up. Many farmers will be happy to take more dollars for the same amount of corn, causing inflation, thus causing fed to raise rates, thus causing recession. The disadvantage of this is that nothing got produced except money.

This fiscal support should be timeboxed (say 1-year during a recession) to prvent the big ag monopolies you are talking about.

We don't even need to think in hypotheticals. Today, the biggest cause of inflation (and thus fed rate hikes and thus recession) is housing. There is some merit to raising rates and flattening demand. But the biggest solution would be to flood the market with supply of housing. Just incentivize builders to build 2 million units within a year with fiscal policy and bam, inflation is gone.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by peyton on Thursday September 22, 2022 @02:14AM (#32935306)
You’re talking about a how a centrally planned economy can in theory overcome market failure.

> Just incentivize builders to build 2 million units within a year with fiscal policy and bam, inflation is gone.

Why fiscal policy and not zoning laws or something? Why would giving money to developers lead to zero inflation?

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by nine_zeros on Thursday September 22, 2022 @10:12AM (#32939013)
> Why fiscal policy and not zoning laws or something? Why would giving money to developers lead to zero inflation?

The fiscal policy is meant to be a one-time, short term boost to the exact items that is causing CPI to go higher. The fiscal policy is meant to be timeboxed. A zoning law is a much more long term thing.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by tuatoru on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:52PM (#32931360)
Oh, I think there's enough to do in "legacy" areas: roads, bridges, ports and airports, water supplies, electricity transmission grids, and so on. Also flood control measures and drought and wildfire mitigation.

Your industries of the future won't operate well if the basics aren't kept up.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by credit_guy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:51PM (#32934614)
But should these be done only in times of recession? Should we hold some projects in "shovel-ready" state so we can have something to quickly spend money on when the economy starts faltering? Or should the government just do these things when they need to be done?
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:23PM (#32930175)
Government subsidy tends to attract a lot of malinvestment in order to get those dollars. For example, in Biden's bill, there's a subsidy for so-called "smart" glass that darkens when an electric current is applied. This is supposed to reduce solar input from windows by 20%.

Of course, if this mattered, people would have already installed window blinds, which are cheap and easy. External eyebrows and eaves also work. "Smart" glass is an expensive solution, it's been around for 25 years, and nobody wants it.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by mattmoose21 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:34PM (#32930364)
Do you have a source for the smart glass subsidy? I haven't been able to find anything that mentions it.
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by jsight on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:49PM (#32930572)
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/inflation-reduction... - It seems like it just puts it on an equal footing with other solutions.

Unless there's a downside that I'm not aware of, that seems like a reasonable thing to do?

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:51PM (#32930602)
The downside is it is expensive, while much cheaper methods are available.
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by mattmoose21 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:55PM (#32930666)
Yeah I don't see anyone taking advantage of this if they didn't also expect it to work.
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by sbuttgereit on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:43PM (#32930499)
https://www.axios.com/2022/08/30/smart-glass

"Among the Inflation Reduction Act's little-noticed yet potentially game-changing provisions: a big incentive for "smart glass," which can make buildings significantly more energy efficient."

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by mattmoose21 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:49PM (#32930574)
Thanks!
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by adgjlsfhk1 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:42PM (#32930478)
One advantage of smart glass is you can get much better wavelength control. For example, you can reflect 90% of infrared light while letting through the visible light. This is really hard to do with a curtain.
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:55PM (#32930663)
If it's not worth the money for people to pay to get this feature, it is not worth paying for it with taxes.

I've seen smart glass demoed at a home show 25 years ago. I thought it was way cool, until they quoted the price. It's no surprise it hasn't gotten any traction since. Oh, it also consumed electric power when in dark mode, as much as a light bulb. It's not a passive system.

Window blinds, louvers, eyebrows, shades, etc., all work fine and are cheap.

BTW, when I lived in Phoenix in the 1970s, people would tape aluminum foil or newspapers on the windows to cut the heat intake. The newspapers would block most of the solar heat, but would let the light through.

Here in Seattle I made some reflective panels I can just stick on the windows when we have a heat wave. Plenty of light still gets in.

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by mattmoose21 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:42PM (#32931257)
Would this product be aimed more at businesses and high-rises? Also this seems a bit more aesthetically pleasing than the alternatives and especially newspaper.
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:02PM (#32931470)
Just pointing out how cheap solutions can be.
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by credit_guy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:56PM (#32934641)
I don't know. LED light bulbs used to be very expensive. A market study 15 years ago would have found close to zero demand for them. Now they are affordable, they cut electricity bills and people do buy them. Technologies need to go over a certain threshold for demand to show up. The government can help with this.
Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by nickpp on Thursday September 22, 2022 @04:38AM (#32936251)
55" 4K TVs used to be very expensive as well. Now they are so cheap and thin and good I hug one in my basement just for the occasional workout video streamed from YouTube.

Technological progress is the secret to price reduction. No government interaction required or even wanted, it's usually much more likely to create problems...

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by credit_guy on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:09AM (#32937284)
> No government interaction required or even wanted, it's usually much more likely to create problems...

That's generally true, but there are exceptions. Solar panels are very cheap now because of decades of government subsidies. Battery electric vehicles are still more expensive than their regular counterparts, but certainly one day they'll be cheaper (they have many more fewer moving parts). But would they have caught on without government subsidies?

Re:Federal Reserve to increase interest rates by 75 basis po... by nickpp on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:26AM (#32937427)
Actually solar panels are very cheap now because the technology used to produce them (the same tech used to produce CPUs and chips and such) has become incredibly cheap due to the widespread high-tech adoption.

Same amazing price reductions with li-ion batteries which are used in every mobile device. EVs? Who knows - but since the government is subsidizing gas prices, that market is already corrupted beyond salvation.

Governmental subsidies managed to skew demand and create market aberrations like the rainy Germany covered in solar panels while their nuclear sector was being closed.