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Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by arcticbull on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:24AM (#32894927)
> I stopped reading as soon as they quoted that silly inaccurate UoC website that gets quoted over and over again.

You stopped reading because you don't like what they had to say. Even mining groups who are incentivized to provide the rosiest picture are within the ballpark.

Current hash rate is 245.32M TH/s. An AntMiner S19 Pro consumes 29.7 J/TH, so assuming they're all S19s (a big if) we'd be consuming 7226MJ/s or 2007.5kWh/s. That's 64TWh/yr.

So your absolute best case is 1/2 of the Cambridge number. Which is exactly what they list as the "minimum" number.

As soon as we start factoring in things inefficiency and losses along the way - and the fact not everyone has an S19 Pro - we start to get closer and closer to that flagship number.

But let's make no mistake - even the minimum number is a staggering, mind-boggling disaster of unprecedented scale.

> At the end of the day, read this: https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/

Lyn is a zealot and a shill, and her arguments on basically any topic are trivially wrong. I would strongly recommend against trusting anything on that blog and instead look for different sources.

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by samkon on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:08PM (#32902523)
Can you elaborate on Lyn Alden? I don’t know enough to comment on her expertise, but I do know that dismissing someone as being trivially wrong on basically any topic is often a sign of not understanding the person’s arguments.
Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by latchkey on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:13PM (#32906417)
I'd be really surprised if you got a response. Surprise me articbull!
Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by arcticbull on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @12:55PM (#32914526)
What's to say? Lyn is a zealot and will go to any lengths to justify her positions. She's clearly intelligent and completely uninterested in objectivity. She's like if Saylor wasn't completely vacant and instead of posting "MORTGAGE YOUR HOUSE TO BUY BITCOIN" at the top of the market you get 15 page diatribes about why Bitcoin energy usage doesn't matter because "the Fed" and "censorship" and "hard to confiscate" etc etc. None of which has a single thing to do with energy usage. It’s just pages of gish gallop.

If you want to listen to someone interesting who isn't just performing mental cartwheels to defend the indefensible, listen to Boaz Sobrado, Mario Gibney from Ledn, Lily Francus, Josh Cincinnati, etc.

Lyn is just rewarmed long-form talking points from r/Bitcoin presented uncritically. There’s interesting people in the space but Lyn is more of a millennial William DeVane shilling gold on Fox at 2am with a substack.

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by latchkey on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:55PM (#32915353)
Before he edited and went on a rant, he just said this:

"What's to say? Lyn is a zealot and will go to any lengths to justify her positions. She's clearly intelligent and completely uninterested in objectivity. She's like if Saylor were intelligent."

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by arcticbull on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @06:56PM (#32918883)
I don't think "he hit enter by accident" is quite the gotcha you seem to think it is.

You found my criticisms insufficient, so I gave you a long-form version along with a list of folks who actually do have something interesting to say in the space. Then it was too verbose.

I suppose there’s no pleasing some folks huh.

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by latchkey on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @10:46AM (#32925931)
Now that we've had a few threads together, I have a whole email box full of you hitting enter "by accident."
Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by arcticbull on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:35PM (#32933449)
Oooh got me again.
Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by latchkey on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:33PM (#32901356)
> You stopped reading because you don't like what they had to say.

Yes, I literally said that. Glad we are in agreement.

> Lyn is a zealot and a shill, and her arguments on basically any topic are trivially wrong.

Yes, trust the guy on HN who is consistently negative about crypto about who to listen to. Sorry, but when people are so adamantly negative about something, I tend to run towards it because it often has a lot of interesting value. You have chosen the 'Chief Censor 451' role in life.

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by arcticbull on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:51PM (#32901583)
> Yes, trust the guy on HN who is consistently negative about crypto about who to listen to. Sorry, but when people are so adamantly negative about something, I tend to run towards it because it often has a lot of interesting value. You have chosen the 'Chief Censor 451' role in life.

I didn't tell you who to read, I suggested you dug around and found someone else who isn't a zealot and a shill. There's good authors out there, this isn't one. I follow a number of pro-crypto authors too, ones who I disagree with but respect. They're out there.

Lyn is in my opinion only slightly above Pomp (who I know has retired to spend more time with his fiat) and Saylor (who was promoted to customer).

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by latchkey on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:08PM (#32901800)
Since you haven't provided any "good authors" and only continue with your anti-crypto tirade, then let me guess... Schneier, Diehl and White.
Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by arcticbull on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:40PM (#32902167)
I didn't provide any because I knew you had no interest. But back on topic, what are your thoughts about wasting a minimum of 64TWh/yr?
Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by latchkey on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:28PM (#32902778)
I don't see it as a waste. I don't feel that technology, in any form, is a waste. The world is a better place with technology and I don't feel that we have to be stuck buying things with gold nuggets. I am more than happy trying to "reinvent finance"... because I see and have personally experienced a lot of issues with existing financial systems.

Early generations of tech might not be the best, but you have to start somewhere and iterate to a better future.

Given that energy use of Bitcoin is literally written into the protocol to decrease over a long period of time, I don't see the big deal of expending energy to get there. Ideally it produces methods of better power distribution, encourages the use of green energy, etc...

Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32894814

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by arcticbull on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:56PM (#32903856)
What about technology that just sets oil fields on fire for no particular purpose? Seems pretty wasteful to me. Technology is never platonic. Concepts aren't a waste but their implementation certainly can be.

> Early generations of tech might not be the best, but you have to start somewhere and iterate to a better future.

Bitcoin is the most obstinate to change on purely ideological grounds. It hasn't materially changed in almost a decade except to move the deck chairs around. This is the time at which one would expect the most change and yet Bitcoin changes the least out of all its peers. This is an intentional decision by both the community and the core team.

Adding green energy simply to waste guessing random numbers instead of decarbonizing the grid just adds to the e-waste Bitcoin is responsible for. Power distribution is a solved problem (only 5% of power is wasted in distribution in the US) - the issue is just NIMBYs refusing to put transmission infrastructure down. Bitcoin does not fix this.

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by latchkey on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:11PM (#32906405)
> What about technology that just sets oil fields on fire for no particular purpose?

Oh come on, don't be absurd. Bitcoin is not setting oil fields on fire any more than the power usage of the whole internet has. How about games? That's pretty pointless expenditure of electricity... but you aren't screaming at the rooftops over that. This is seriously a case of old man yells at cloud meme.

> Bitcoin is the most obstinate to change on purely ideological grounds.

That's fine. ETH exists. It could mean that ETH wins in the end. Who knows.

> Adding green energy simply to waste guessing random numbers instead of decarbonizing the grid just adds to the e-waste Bitcoin is responsible for.

Blah blah blah... just as absurd as the above statement. Try a different trope, please.

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by arcticbull on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @12:49PM (#32914411)
It’s not a trope it’s facts you dislike and refuse to engage with. You are a miner, you are part of the problem and of course you are looking for anything you can to justify what you do without having to ask if you're the baddies. Such a disclosure would have been helpful in advance and would have saved me some time.

I'm sorry you're trying to defend the indefensible: kilotons of e-waste per year and the energy consumption of a small country to achieve the work of a Raspberry Pi.

97% of all bitcoin mining ASICs will never mine a single block. Ever. Just straight from factory to landfill with a long sojourn warming up the planet.

Everything beyond those facts are mental gymanastics.

Re:Bitcoin is not a store of value by latchkey on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:54PM (#32915329)
I don't mine bitcoin.