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Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by dspillett on Thursday September 08, 2022 @05:56AM (#32763425)
> Steve, like any other human, is a shade of grey.

Not the lightest of shades though, to many people?

I'm sure there is good in Alex Jones. It is very well buried if so, but it probably does exist. I still feel justified in never wanting to interact with him and wishing the rest of the world didn't have to either.

While we shouldn't be completely dogmatic and only consider someone's bad points¹, and I wouldn't say that Jobs was at all actively evil², the fact that someone isn't the blackest-of-black pantomime evil, or the gaudiest-of-gaudy moustache-twirling pantomime evil, doesn't mean we can't discuss their bad points. It might actually help other arseholes who don't realise that they are being a problem, if they see the discussion and think “hang on, I do that, maybe I'm upsetting people too, perhaps I should try a different tack”.

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[1] or conversely only their good points: Churchill was undoubtably what we needed as a prime minister during and in the run up to war, a good family man by most accounts, supported some good social reforms, ete., but he also had some questionable views on race (less so by the standards of the time than now, but still), supported the use of chemical weapons, and so forth,

[2] just a bit of an arsehole by many accounts, and presided over a company that at the time³ benefited from what we now call modern slavery

[3] and to this day doesn't have a clean record on that count

Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by froggertoaster on Thursday September 08, 2022 @07:17AM (#32763956)
Congrats, you just compared Steve Jobs to Alex Jones and proved the original commentor's point.
Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by dspillett on Thursday September 08, 2022 @10:30AM (#32766089)
Also to Churchill. Are you saying it is fine to talk about good things, but not bad things, in a person's make up & history? Do you feel that is particularly just/balanced/other? Balance comes from truth and acknowledging nuance, not cherry-picking either way.
Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by 11101010001100 on Thursday September 08, 2022 @08:28AM (#32764519)
They are both humans after all.
Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by quitit on Thursday September 08, 2022 @06:53AM (#32763815)
Hating Steve Jobs fits tidily in the Anti-Apple rhetoric: which started precisely when they were pulled into the smartphone wars.

When I look at the criticisms of Steve Jobs or Apple, I look at it in context of the life of people and other businesses, and it takes a lot of double standards to make the argument land one way “he’s satan” or the other “he’s god’s gift”.

It's why when I hear Steve Jobs/Apple is evil, I hold it with the same credibility as people that say Steve Jobs/Apple are the greatest. I.E. With no credibility whatsoever.

Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by elliekelly on Thursday September 08, 2022 @07:04AM (#32763878)
This is really ridiculous. I am definitely someone who would fall into the category of “zealous Apple fan” but Steve Jobs was clearly an asshole of the highest order. Read the Walter Isaacson biography or his daughter’s memoir, Small Fry. Lisa Brennan Jobs has no reason to peddle “anti-Apple rhetoric”. She has a vested interest in the opposite! But her book tells her story about growing up with a massive asshole for a father.
[dead]
Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by elliekelly on Thursday September 08, 2022 @07:22AM (#32763991)
> If you can’t put everything into a tidy little black or white box, your mind explodes.

You might do well to exercise your self-awareness muscles a bit more.

Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by quitit on Thursday September 08, 2022 @07:36AM (#32764093)
The problem here is that I’ve brought up a scenario: people who frame Jobs as 100% one way or another (just like some people frame Apple as one way or another.)

So what do you do? Frame him as one way - in this case in a bad light. Exactly as I stated some people do.

And what? You’re upset that I don’t value your opinion on the matter because you can’t process inconvenient shades of grey.

Sure quote Lisa, I could come back and quote J Ive - because different people have had different experiences with him. It merely proves that shades of grey exist.

Still you seem incapable of seeing that people have different views of him. That perhaps he was good in some ways, awful in others.

Hence why I will never pay any credit to people who can’t look at, and pay appropriate credit to all of the information. Everything exists in a shade of grey.

Anything else is ridiculous.

Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by notacoward on Thursday September 08, 2022 @09:12AM (#32764989)
> because different people have had different experiences with him

This is true, but also highlights an important asymmetry. Somebody who is an asshole only to some people is really an asshole all the time. They're just a smart asshole, aware of the need to secure others' cooperation or more generally manage others' opinion of them. By contrast, a nice person is no worse than neutral to (within epsilon of) everyone. They don't need to manipulate others into being allies.

> Everything exists in a shade of grey.

Both sides, eh? Even grey has different shades. Yes, we should consider all the information and reach nuanced conclusions, but there's nothing wrong with recognizing that someone's "default setting" was to treat others poorly and that others should not try to emulate them. The "brilliant asshole" archetype, of which Jobs was very much an exemplar, has done immeasurable harm to our industry, and a few stealth-PR "revelations" don't change that.

Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by quitit on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:21PM (#32819187)
I'll say it once more: I don't hold value to opinions which need to place people/things into these absurd good/bad columns. It's naive, especially when one can trivially find opposing examples.

So do what works for you though, I really don't care - that's my point. I care about people who can hold a nuanced view, they're the ones who are going to inform me without some adopted bias coming into play. Deliberately filtering the available information to create a convenient strawman is cherrypicking.

Being able to have a backbone and say a person did good and bad things and articulate clearly what those things are takes courage. Especially when the bandwagon has decided on one way or another.

In this case we're talking about Steve Jobs, so I'll also restate it: People who act like this man was god's gift are similarly holding a view I don't value. I actually said that in my original comment, so you can clearly see my view here. Whether you're choosing to make him out to be all good, or all bad is creating a false image, a lie.

Now perhaps you might be asking? What's so bad about a little lie, why shouldn't a person just round off these people into good or bad boxes and call it a day, isn't that easier.

No, because such behaviours are a slippery slope. Perhaps your own personal life is what someone else would classify as deeply and morally wrong. Then perhaps you'd be the one to hope that others don't throw you into the trash based on the one-line assessment of a stranger.

Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by junon on Thursday September 08, 2022 @07:19AM (#32763971)
This isn't how dialog on Hacker News works.
Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by quitit on Thursday September 08, 2022 @07:43AM (#32764159)
I see you write this a lot. You also spend a lot of time throwing stones from your glasshouse.

Change comes from within.

Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by junon on Thursday September 08, 2022 @01:20PM (#32768637)
I've said it exactly twice over the entire lifetime of my account. Try harder.
Re:Steve Jobs emails himself (2010) by quitit on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:27PM (#32819234)
You'll get precisely the amount of effort hypocrisy deserves, which is zero.