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A comment on Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service. Parent comment

Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by ALittleLight on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:09PM (#32727280)
Even if that were true, and I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased, it's a criminal or civil matter. If people on that forum committed a crime, let them face the legal penalties. Why should the website be made persona non grata by Internet companies?

How many more are dead from activities on Facebook, Instagram, etc? Why is it that big businesses see no punishment for vastly larger crimes and small communities are harshly dealt with?

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by cauefcr on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:56PM (#32727869)
KF was made _for_ harassment, that's very different.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by pclmulqdq on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:36PM (#32728386)
Facebook was made for sexual harassment. It was originally made so that Zucc and his friends could rate the girls at Harvard.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by borski on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:36PM (#32728388)
‘ratsmack: harassment was explicitly their stated goal from the very beginning. The very name is a play on the first person they decided to go after (and why the forum formed).
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by borski on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:37PM (#32728403)
Even if Facebook were made for harassment (which it wasn’t; you’re thinking of the website pre-FB), they would have since evolved and given that up.

KF never evolved.

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by ratsmack on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:32PM (#32728338)
If you know that for a fact, maybe you can elaborate.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by cauefcr on Monday September 05, 2022 @04:45PM (#32729216)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms It doesn't seem a very controversial statement.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by baud147258 on Monday September 05, 2022 @06:58PM (#32730479)
dunno, maybe I didn't browse the 'right' threads for that, but those that I read were just making fun of someone (or a group of people)
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by therouwboat on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:41PM (#32727684)
So how many more are dead from Facebook etc?
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by ALittleLight on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:51PM (#32727800)
It's not countable, but vastly more than three. There are civil wars and ethnic cleansing that get organized and supported on Facebook (e.g. Ethiopia and Myanmar). Gang violence and mass murder also get spread on Facebook. Nevermind the harassment and bullying that happens on Facebook, which is, of course, orders of magnitude more than what goes on on KF.

It's just not very sensible to think that big companies care about a few people dying because of a small forum when they demonstrably do not care about many, many, more people dying because of a big forum. It seems way more plausible to me that big tech companies work together to kill small social media than that they have some secret ethic which compels them to care about small harms over big harms.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by 1ris on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:05PM (#32727997)
Intent is the key ingredient to crime (or other behaviours society does not tolerate). You totally ignore this.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by ALittleLight on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:21PM (#32728194)
Oh, I see. Thank you for clearing this up for me. When big, rich, powerful companies get people killed they didn't intend to, so, actually, no harm done. When big, rich, powerful companies accuse a small community of getting someone killed obviously they did intend to do it and so they need to be shut down.

Very illuminating!

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by clucas on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:45PM (#32728513)
Can't you engage the point in good faith? Of course intent matters! If you have a fleet of trucks and occasionally one of your drivers gets in an accident, that's way different than if you have a fleet going out there running people off the road.

I think you may have good point hiding in there (maybe "Facebook may not do it intentionally, but they've been so negligent that..."), but it's lost in the dripping sarcasm. The point you're replying to wasn't that ridiculous.

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by tsol on Monday September 05, 2022 @05:02PM (#32729442)
How do you even define intent when Facebook knows this stuff is happening but doesn't do anything? Intent is hardly relevant when they are aware of consequences of their behavior and still don't change. Don't know intend for it to happen, but it does happen and they're aware of it and continue I do it. I honestly think this is just another case of third world lives being less important to people.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by ALittleLight on Monday September 05, 2022 @04:08PM (#32728838)
I would say that I did engage in good faith. I mean the argument I'm making and I'm making my arguments the way I feel is best.

It is, of course, completely ridiculous to think that "intent" separates Facebook and KiwiFarms. Facebook doesn't intend to cause civil wars, genocides, spree killers, gang violence, body dismorphia, self-harm, harassment, and suicide. Facebook intends to connect people so that they can develop a social network and monetize the social network and they are willing to break a few eggs to make that omelette.

You might as well say that it is the color of Mark Zuckerberg's shoes that matters as say it is Facebook's intent. No, obviously, what matters is the bad stuff and the people harmed. It's not like any of those people are less dead because of Facebook's intentions. If Facebook had terrible intentions and excellent outcomes that would be a much better world.

The other problem with saying intent is what matters is that the people who make this argument also make some kind of magical mind reading claim that they know the intentions of others. "Intent is what matters, and I know the intentions of KiwiFarms! They are bad!" Just save everyone some time and explain that you know KiwiFarms is bad and that is why they must be destroyed.

KiwiFarms is bad because they intended to get people killed. No, there is no evidence for that. And yes, there is plenty of evidence against that in the form of trying to get people hurt being against the rules and moderation of the site. No, there was no police or legal action against KiwiFarms for the crimes we "know" they were committing - but all that is beside the point. We know their intent! It is bad and they must be removed!

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by clucas on Monday September 05, 2022 @04:51PM (#32729290)
If you had a crystal ball and could magically determine how many incidents of harassment per daily active user were coordinated on KF vs. Facebook, which site do you think would come out looking worse?

Or... Let's say a group of a dozen people got together and decided to make life a living hell for their target. They are going to mock the target mercilessly, following up on any online interaction by posting vile shit, sending nasty DMs on every platform they can find, etc... Nothing illegal, but just being awful.

But let's say in one world, they're coordinating this stuff on Facebook, and in another they're coordinating it on KF. Now let's say the target gets logs of the coordination, and they report it to the site where it happened. Which site do you think would be most likely to take action, FB or KF? I think the obvious answer is that FB is much more likely to try to put a stop to the harassment.

Also, for you to claim you're arguing in good faith when your entire response to a reasonable argument was to mockingly agree with it and say "Very illuminating!" is really rich. If you want to actually convince people of your points, you're going to have to do a lot better.

For the record, I really don't like that KF has been forced off the internet the way it has. But you're not going to convince anyone by being sarcastic and pretending that KF isn't an awful place where users try to do awful things.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by rvz on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:58PM (#32728703)
Yeah I know, isn't it illuminating to see Facebook profit off of disinformation campaigns and to be used as tool and aided a genocide in another country, killing thousands. Here we also have Twitter [0][1][2] still unable to remove CP images off of their website for years despite it being absolutely illegal in many countries.

I think the fine should be substantially higher since they are 'big, rich and powerful as well' [3].

[0] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/30/india-twitter-kashm...

[1] https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-rules-twitter-can-be-su...

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-20/twitter-f...

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/06/rohingya-...

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by therouwboat on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:37PM (#32728401)
Yeah, when you intentionally cause harm and even drive people to suicide, its worse than unintentionally causing harm.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by pclmulqdq on Monday September 05, 2022 @04:01PM (#32728748)
Intent - mens rea in the law - is not about the intent to [commit insert crime here]. It is about the intent to do the thing that resulted in the crime. That is why if you get blackout drunk and drive through a crowd of kids, you get charged with manslaughter: you didn't intend to kill those kids, but you intended to get blackout drunk and drive, which resulted in the death of the kids.

Facebook absolutely would have criminal intent the same way kiwifarms would - in both cases, they intended to serve content from their users.

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by mrweasel on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:57PM (#32727876)
At least seven. I did a quick search on DuckDuckGo, because I remembered at least one suicide covered in Danish media. The first page alone yielded seven different teenagers from Ireland, United Kingdom, Canada and Danmark.

So just guessing here, but Meta properties alone must have killed thousands of teenagers.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by Deathcrow on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:49PM (#32727770)
Facebook has probably killed more people with face detection and name tagging in photos alone.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by wizofaus on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:17PM (#32728149)
If even only half the material presented in "The social dilemma" was credible, Meta have absolutely been knowingly responsible for more harm than KF. I don't know what the right solution is.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by favorited on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:47PM (#32728549)
> I think it's pretty doubtful to just attribute a suicide to some people who made fun of or harassed the deceased

Near literally said he was committing suicide due to the abuse from Kiwi Farms. If you're doubtful, it's because you're willfully ignorant.

https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986839743037448

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by ALittleLight on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:55PM (#32728657)
Not even the tweet you linked says this. The person says they have been depressed and mocked their entire life and that they have tried therapy and medication and that it did not work. That seems much more like a depressed person driven to suicide than a forum being responsible for responsible for their death.
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by that_guy_iain on Monday September 05, 2022 @04:13PM (#32728908)
He did go on to say that if the KiwiFarms founder/owner/whatever had been more compassionate he would have carried on.

https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986855014428672

It could be guilting those who harrassed and bullied him. But it's probably just highlighting how bad it was for him.

To me, it's pretty clear KiwiFarms were a major contributing factor to their sucide.

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by ALittleLight on Monday September 05, 2022 @04:30PM (#32729062)
To my knowledge there was a thread with ~13 pages of comments making fun of near, but nothing threatening or harmful to his life. So far as I know the true identity of near was never known - so it's not even like the mean internet comments were intruding on his life. Can you link to the mean things (or an archive of them) that the KiwiFarms people did or said that drove near to suicide? If not, can you summarize the things they said or did?
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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by favorited on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @01:09AM (#32733116)
It literally says, "Kiwi Farms has made the harassment orders of magnitude worse." By all means, continue to enjoy your willful ignorance, it must be nice.

One of Near's friends just tweeted a message where they had begged, "do something about this site already" the day they killed themself. Nier committed suicide because of KF harassment. https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1567014389282385922

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Re:Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard termi... by anigbrowl on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:36PM (#32728392)
Why is it that big businesses see no punishment for vastly larger crimes and small communities are harshly dealt with?

Because they have more resources and it's easier to take down a small target than a large one. I am more than fine with Zuckerberg and others being held to account for harms negligently or callously inflicted by Facebook.

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