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Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by Animats on Monday September 05, 2022 @01:47PM (#32727040)
> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed.

Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.

There's something to be said for a paddle shifter, but mostly for better control at low speed. For parking and off-road use, it can be helpful to map more pedal angle to a range of low speeds. This is more like the high/low range lever found on off-road vehicles and tractors than like a stick shift.

Mode switches are undesirable because they lead to "wrong mode" accidents. This is an ongoing problem with aircraft automation.

Behavior with zero accelerator and brake is an interesting question. Should the vehicle creep slowly forward? That's a classic feature, or bug, of automatic transmissions. Some automatic transmissions had anti-creep mechanisms to prevent this. If the vehicle comes to a full stop, should releasing the brake initiate creep? Should the vehicle roll back if on a hill? Some cars have "hill holders" to prevent that. For an electric car, those are all design decisions - the power train has no inherent behavior.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by Goz3rr on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:26PM (#32727511)
> The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.

Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT this shifting was almost completely imperceptible, no lurching of any kind even when launching it in sport mode. If you're driving in anything other than sport mode the car will spend most of its time in second gear anyways, not even using it from a standstill.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by theluketaylor on Monday September 05, 2022 @05:32PM (#32729757)
Only using first gear for hard launches helps, as does the fact they are using dog clutches in addition to traditional friction plates.

The coolest part is the rear motor can be completely mechanically decoupled from the axel so it can just coast. Most other EV just shut of power to the motor, but Taycan can freewheel on the rear axle.

Jalopnik did a huge in depth on the whole powertrain that is really interesting.

https://jalopnik.com/an-extremely-detailed-look-at-the-porsc...

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by labcomputer on Monday September 05, 2022 @07:35PM (#32730750)
> Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox

Actually, Tesla outsourced the transmission, first to Bosch then to Borg-Warner. Apparently neither of them could design and build a suitable gearbox.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by timc3 on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:46PM (#32727739)
I can feel it on my Taycan (it’s one of the most powerful models) but it’s not bad at all.

Porsche has a lot of experience with gearboxes which probably explains why they can build a reliable one when dealing with the power and torque.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by olivermuty on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:02PM (#32727957)
How is the maintenance aspect of this? One of things I like about my EV (Tesla) is that mechanical maintenance is essentially zero, whereas I had to pay 1000 eur every second year to service my Mercedes automatic transmission...
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by kayodelycaon on Monday September 05, 2022 @01:55PM (#32727126)
Wrong mode accidents don’t need to happen. My Prius has three modes for acceleration curves: Eco, Normal, and Power. If you push the pedal down all the way, you get full power in any mode.

Note: power mode does not increase power, it just waits longer to turn off the ICE in order to improve throttle response

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by jac_no_k on Monday September 05, 2022 @08:43PM (#32731223)
Nissan Leaf with it's single pedal setup is like a driving a car in 2nd gear, where the speed can go down to zero and accelerate all the way up to highway speeds.

In single pedal mode, slowing down to a stop is a lifting the accelerator pedal completely and it will come to a stop in predictable manner. The brake pedal adds more regen and stronger application applies the brakes itself. From a stop, pushing down the accelerator starts moving the car. On hills, there is brake assist and works without any drama. Operating in reverse is the same way.

In dual pedal mode, or classic operations. While under motion, lifting the accelerator has a bit of regen until about 7kph and then creeps forward. To come to a complete stop, the brake pedal is necessary. From a stop, lifting the brake pedal starts the creep forward. This being an electric, even on inclines, the creep forward is consistent. Reverse is the same way.

At slow speeds, ie parking, it is easier to have the creep mode. Controlling speed with the brake pedal feels better. However, with experience, single pedal slow speed works well, just have to feather the throttle.

I've set the car to default to two pedal setup on start. I hit the single pedal mode switch every time I'm driving. It works well in a shared car setup. I do find it more weird to now drive with two pedals, but using the brakes still comes up even with single pedal driving, so if I do "forget" which mode I'm in, I'll still use the brakes when the car isn't slowing down enough.

Regarding the simulated legacy behavior, ie rolling back on the hill or changing torque. This is in the same line as simulating gearing in a CVT and simulating engine noise. I don't find it appealing and do hope car manufacturers have it as a configurable item, like Nissan has done with the one pedal driving. Here in a Japan, even the noise generator to warn pedestrians can be turned off.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by Sohcahtoa82 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @11:18AM (#32738280)
Teslas have THREE stopping modes.

The first is "Creep" which behaves like a classic automatic transmission. It basically matches the dual-pedal mode.

The second is "Stop", which matches the single-pedal mode you describe.

But there's a third mode, "Roll", which essentially mimics a manual transmission in neutral once speeds get below ~7 mph.

When I first got my Tesla, I came from a car with a manual transmission, so "Roll" made me feel at home and I used it for the first couple weeks. But once I tried out "Stop" mode and tried out single-pedal driving, I was sold. There's no going back. It's now exceptionally rare for me to use the brake pedal.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by LorenPechtel on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:57PM (#32727878)
Yeah, I can definitely see merit to having a control that alters the responsiveness of the go pedal. I have near zero experience behind the wheel of an electric but back in the days of stick I appreciated having a low gear to creep around in and would actually have liked a lower gear occasionally.
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by Taniwha on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:24PM (#32727487)
Leaf's switch in and out of the B regen by shifting into drive a 2nd time - however they also have an "eco mode" switch on the steering wheel - if you normally drive with it on then pressing it does feel a lot like a shift up