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Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by hbarka on Monday September 05, 2022 @12:34PM (#32726206)
Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only affects what happens when letting off the power pedal.

The nice thing about the regen paddle mechanical control is the no-look ability at your fingertips to change the car’s response depending on driving context. There are moments when you don’t want the car to tip into a regeneration drag when letting off the power pedal and sometimes you feel the need for the “engine braking” to engage right away.

All the other EVs just have strong regen (B setting) or low regen and the selection is a preset you have to choose either on the screen or somewhere near the shift cluster and isn’t exactly a no-look control you can change on the fly. The older VW Golf EV used to have a stick where you can tap up and down two levels of regen on the fly and that was also a great experience but now buttons have replaced the stick. (Sigh, it was nice while you had it, VW!) The Chevy Bolt has one paddle but it’s designed like a brake-with-your-hands lever when depressed. Not quite the effect of stepping up or down.

In sum, the feeling of downshifting, such as into a turn, can be controlled. On the other hand, there is no need for “upshifting” if the EV had adequate power to get to a high speed. Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. I think Toyota’s goal is to eke out more range because they want to use less powerful motors where the power and torque bands would benefit from gearing. My dream is for Tesla to add mechanical paddle shifters and do what Hyundai does.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by Animats on Monday September 05, 2022 @01:47PM (#32727040)
> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed.

Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.

There's something to be said for a paddle shifter, but mostly for better control at low speed. For parking and off-road use, it can be helpful to map more pedal angle to a range of low speeds. This is more like the high/low range lever found on off-road vehicles and tractors than like a stick shift.

Mode switches are undesirable because they lead to "wrong mode" accidents. This is an ongoing problem with aircraft automation.

Behavior with zero accelerator and brake is an interesting question. Should the vehicle creep slowly forward? That's a classic feature, or bug, of automatic transmissions. Some automatic transmissions had anti-creep mechanisms to prevent this. If the vehicle comes to a full stop, should releasing the brake initiate creep? Should the vehicle roll back if on a hill? Some cars have "hill holders" to prevent that. For an electric car, those are all design decisions - the power train has no inherent behavior.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by Goz3rr on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:26PM (#32727511)
> The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.

Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT this shifting was almost completely imperceptible, no lurching of any kind even when launching it in sport mode. If you're driving in anything other than sport mode the car will spend most of its time in second gear anyways, not even using it from a standstill.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by theluketaylor on Monday September 05, 2022 @05:32PM (#32729757)
Only using first gear for hard launches helps, as does the fact they are using dog clutches in addition to traditional friction plates.

The coolest part is the rear motor can be completely mechanically decoupled from the axel so it can just coast. Most other EV just shut of power to the motor, but Taycan can freewheel on the rear axle.

Jalopnik did a huge in depth on the whole powertrain that is really interesting.

https://jalopnik.com/an-extremely-detailed-look-at-the-porsc...

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by labcomputer on Monday September 05, 2022 @07:35PM (#32730750)
> Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox

Actually, Tesla outsourced the transmission, first to Bosch then to Borg-Warner. Apparently neither of them could design and build a suitable gearbox.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by timc3 on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:46PM (#32727739)
I can feel it on my Taycan (it’s one of the most powerful models) but it’s not bad at all.

Porsche has a lot of experience with gearboxes which probably explains why they can build a reliable one when dealing with the power and torque.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by olivermuty on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:02PM (#32727957)
How is the maintenance aspect of this? One of things I like about my EV (Tesla) is that mechanical maintenance is essentially zero, whereas I had to pay 1000 eur every second year to service my Mercedes automatic transmission...
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by kayodelycaon on Monday September 05, 2022 @01:55PM (#32727126)
Wrong mode accidents don’t need to happen. My Prius has three modes for acceleration curves: Eco, Normal, and Power. If you push the pedal down all the way, you get full power in any mode.

Note: power mode does not increase power, it just waits longer to turn off the ICE in order to improve throttle response

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by jac_no_k on Monday September 05, 2022 @08:43PM (#32731223)
Nissan Leaf with it's single pedal setup is like a driving a car in 2nd gear, where the speed can go down to zero and accelerate all the way up to highway speeds.

In single pedal mode, slowing down to a stop is a lifting the accelerator pedal completely and it will come to a stop in predictable manner. The brake pedal adds more regen and stronger application applies the brakes itself. From a stop, pushing down the accelerator starts moving the car. On hills, there is brake assist and works without any drama. Operating in reverse is the same way.

In dual pedal mode, or classic operations. While under motion, lifting the accelerator has a bit of regen until about 7kph and then creeps forward. To come to a complete stop, the brake pedal is necessary. From a stop, lifting the brake pedal starts the creep forward. This being an electric, even on inclines, the creep forward is consistent. Reverse is the same way.

At slow speeds, ie parking, it is easier to have the creep mode. Controlling speed with the brake pedal feels better. However, with experience, single pedal slow speed works well, just have to feather the throttle.

I've set the car to default to two pedal setup on start. I hit the single pedal mode switch every time I'm driving. It works well in a shared car setup. I do find it more weird to now drive with two pedals, but using the brakes still comes up even with single pedal driving, so if I do "forget" which mode I'm in, I'll still use the brakes when the car isn't slowing down enough.

Regarding the simulated legacy behavior, ie rolling back on the hill or changing torque. This is in the same line as simulating gearing in a CVT and simulating engine noise. I don't find it appealing and do hope car manufacturers have it as a configurable item, like Nissan has done with the one pedal driving. Here in a Japan, even the noise generator to warn pedestrians can be turned off.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by Sohcahtoa82 on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @11:18AM (#32738280)
Teslas have THREE stopping modes.

The first is "Creep" which behaves like a classic automatic transmission. It basically matches the dual-pedal mode.

The second is "Stop", which matches the single-pedal mode you describe.

But there's a third mode, "Roll", which essentially mimics a manual transmission in neutral once speeds get below ~7 mph.

When I first got my Tesla, I came from a car with a manual transmission, so "Roll" made me feel at home and I used it for the first couple weeks. But once I tried out "Stop" mode and tried out single-pedal driving, I was sold. There's no going back. It's now exceptionally rare for me to use the brake pedal.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by LorenPechtel on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:57PM (#32727878)
Yeah, I can definitely see merit to having a control that alters the responsiveness of the go pedal. I have near zero experience behind the wheel of an electric but back in the days of stick I appreciated having a low gear to creep around in and would actually have liked a lower gear occasionally.
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by Taniwha on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:24PM (#32727487)
Leaf's switch in and out of the B regen by shifting into drive a 2nd time - however they also have an "eco mode" switch on the steering wheel - if you normally drive with it on then pressing it does feel a lot like a shift up
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by kvark on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:04PM (#32727985)
When would you actually need to not have the max regen braking? You can always just push the drive pedal slightly to let the car know you aren’t slowing down, instead.
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by hbarka on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:57PM (#32728676)
Yes but constantly feathering like this causes foot fatigue.
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by danbolt on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @02:39AM (#32733727)
When I’ve driven a Nissan Leaf, I almost keep it entirely in B mode. Keeping the battery level up feels almost gamified.
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by lokedhs on Monday September 05, 2022 @01:37PM (#32726917)
I have the Niro EV, and it was my first EV. The paddle shifters are amazing, and you get used to them very quickly. I recently rented another EV and I was surprised it wasn't there.

Most of the time I can drive without even touching the brake pedal, since you can hold the left paddle and it will engage maximum engine braking, which it quite powerful. This helps with battery as well since there is less energy loss when braking.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by LorenPechtel on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:58PM (#32727892)
I thought anything other than really hard braking didn't actually happen anyway, it was actually done with regen.
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by lokedhs on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @11:52AM (#32738834)
Perhaps it does. When I use the pedal the display shows a amount of regen power. However, as I press harder there is no obvious transition where the actual brakes take effect. It feels completely natural, which is why I thought it applied the brakes immediately. Perhaps the design is just so good that you can't tell.
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by terrio on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:04PM (#32727223)
I have an L button in my EV car and two settings are way enough.

Fine-tuning this doesn't really add any value

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by jjtheblunt on Monday September 05, 2022 @01:28PM (#32726818)
Is it coincidence that so many designs first seen in Audi seem to show up in Hyundia/Kia at a short delay?
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by xanathar on Monday September 05, 2022 @01:36PM (#32726906)
The Audi e-Tron debuted on 17 September 2018. The Kia e-Niro debuted on 18 September 2018. The Hyundai Kona was selling in the USA on November 2017.

Are you referring to a different model? Because if we consider the e-Tron... it doesn't seem to be where this design was first seen.

Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by dangrossman on Monday September 05, 2022 @01:44PM (#32726990)
The first vehicle with a regen steering wheel paddle was the 2014 Cadillac ELR, followed by the Chevy Volt and Chevy Bolt in 2016.
Re:Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and ... by hbarka on Monday September 05, 2022 @02:04PM (#32727219)
Their implementation of the paddle shifter was not the shiftable kind [1]. It was a lever you had to continually press to hold regen. Imagine your hand cramping up trying to keep it engaged. To this day GM has this odd implementation.

[1] https://youtu.be/6NqfESCfSUM