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Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by OJFord on Friday September 02, 2022 @10:25AM (#32691228)
Just because you pay a positive non-zero amount for less than a quarter of the energy in, it does not mean that a device has greater than 100% efficiency, which is not possible.

If heat pumps are 400% efficient then log burners in cabins in the woods are even better.

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by jackcarter on Friday September 02, 2022 @10:59AM (#32691614)
A heat pump warms a home more efficiently than using the same amount of electricity for resistive heating. It can do this because it's not generating the heat from scratch; it's moving heat from outside to inside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Performance

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by xattt on Friday September 02, 2022 @02:35PM (#32694278)
A local company has developed a heat pump with a thermal energy storage system. Not sure how they do this, but I imagine there is some sort of insulated cinder blocks on a secondary loop that shuttles heat/cold to where it needs to go.

(1) https://stash.energy/en/product/

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by folmar on Friday September 02, 2022 @05:23PM (#32695868)
They try very hard not to be specific, but the industrial heat accumulators are usually just water.
Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by xattt on Monday September 05, 2022 @07:38PM (#32730779)
> … heat accumulator

Thank you for helping me learn a new HVAC term!

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by OJFord on Friday September 02, 2022 @11:45AM (#32692139)
I know. It's only >100% 'efficient' if you ignore the input of 'outside heat'. That is not a normal calculation, and not really called 'efficiency'.

It's desirable for multiple reasons, of course, but it's not efficiency.

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by pmoleri on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:34PM (#32693491)
Unfortunately by that metric other electrical heaters tend to 0% efficiency because they are not making use of the virtually unlimited energy outside the buildings.

The 400% metric let's you compare with other heaters, the 100% is kind of useless.

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by OJFord on Friday September 02, 2022 @07:06PM (#32696742)
They're not using them as an input, so.. obviously they're not included in the input/output calculation?
Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by mminer237 on Friday September 02, 2022 @10:49AM (#32691500)
All energy from log burners comes from the fuel, and some ashes remain unburnt. They're under 100% efficient at converting fuel to heat. You put in x fuel and <x heat.

A heat pump takes heat from outside the system. You put in x fuel and you get >x heat. Getting more energy than you put in makes the efficiency over 100%.

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by OJFord on Friday September 02, 2022 @11:46AM (#32692162)
I know. You can't just ignore the bulk of the input and still call it 'efficiency' though.

Even manufacturers call this 'coefficient of performance', not efficiency.

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by MichaelCollins on Friday September 02, 2022 @02:41PM (#32694353)
Since precise use of language is so important to you:

> "You can't [...]"

He did, so obviously he can. You mean shouldn't, not can't.

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by OJFord on Saturday September 03, 2022 @11:47PM (#32709628)
Sure, a slightly irritating turn of phrase, not accurate. I didn't think it would be so controversial to hold terms of art/words with actual scientific meaning to a higher standard though.

If we're willing to be so blasé with 'efficiency' then why not, say, 'functional programming'? If it works it's functional right?

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by marshray on Friday September 02, 2022 @03:16PM (#32694708)
An implied qualification of "you can't [while remaining logically consistent]" is common usage.
Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by bufferoverflow on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:52PM (#32695587)
> They're under 100% efficient at converting fuel to heat

I think only matter-antimatter reaction comes close to 100%. Burning fuels isn't even 1% of that.

Re:Nuclear-Powered Cardiac Pacemakers by cedilla on Friday September 02, 2022 @10:49AM (#32691502)
Impossible in a closed system. Extremely common elsewhere.