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Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @04:32PM (#32682721)
Inflation is not the result of profits, gouging, etc. It's the result of funding the deficit by running the printing press. (Or the modern equivalent, creating debt backed by nothing.)

The proof is the observation that endemic inflation only happens in countries with fiat money systems.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by sofixa on Thursday September 01, 2022 @05:12PM (#32683274)
I'm not sure you deserve engaging, but I'll give it a try.

So you're just going to ignore a war involving two of the biggest exporters of some of the main raw materials we have (foodstuffs and energy) on the planet and associated supply problems on crucial things? Not to mention a pandemic that wrecked havoc on supply lines. None of that matters, your theory goes, it's purely a monetary phenomenon, because only countries with fiat money systems are impacted. Could you share some countries with alternative money systems that aren't impacted?

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @05:29PM (#32683522)
If it was not caused by fiat money, I'd expect to see corresponding periods of deflation. Inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level. It is not a temporary spike from the fluctuations in supply&demand of goods and services.

Another way to understand it is to consider, what happens if the price of gas rises? Does that automatically put more money in your pocket to pay for it? Nope. You just have less money to spend on other things. But inflation (with a lag period) does put more money in your pocket.

> Could you share some countries with alternative money systems that aren't impacted?

Modern countries have all gone fiat. But we can look at the US from 1800-1914, which was not fiat money. There was zero net inflation in that period, while we've had endemic inflation ever since (aside from a brief period of deflation during the Depression).

> I'm not sure you deserve engaging

What I wrote is not the general opinion, though it is the opinion of economists. At least you were willing to talk about it, which is nice.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by selectodude on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:00PM (#32683893)
The value of fiat currency is roughly money supply divided by economic output. If the numerator rises faster than the denominator, well...

Obviously it's a more complicated than that, especially in the context of the US Dollar, but for smaller countries it's pretty basic stuff.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by spaceman_2020 on Thursday September 01, 2022 @05:39PM (#32683643)
Inflation isn’t terribly bad in countries that didn’t print wild amounts of money.

Like in India, inflation is almost back in control, and we didn’t print much money.

Same in China.

I haven’t run the numbers but if you were to chart inflation vs the money printing done by an economy, you’d likely find a positive correlation.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by unmole on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:29AM (#32686603)
If inflation is a purely monetary phenomenon caused by printing money, why do Telangana and Sikkim experience higher inflation than the national average?

> I haven’t run the numbers but if you were to chart inflation vs the money printing done by an economy, you’d likely find a positive correlation.

As a member of the Eurozone, Estonia can't print money. That didn't stop it from inflation hitting 23%.

It's almost as if inflation is influenced by local factors...

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by roenxi on Friday September 02, 2022 @05:41AM (#32688713)
> As a member of the Eurozone, Estonia can't print money. That didn't stop it from inflation hitting 23%.

Actually, according to Wikipedia, Estonia joined the Euro in 2010. There have been a lot of Euros created in the last few years (looking at the M2, we're roughly at the point where most Euro appeared after Estonia joined in to the project).

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:04PM (#32695169)
There's something else going on in Estonia, or arbitrage would be happening (importing cheaper stuff from the eurozone).
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jdougan on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:46AM (#32686700)
Cantillion effects possibly
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @05:41PM (#32683673)
The WSJ ran a chart a few weeks ago showing inflation lagged money printing by about 13 months.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Izikiel43 on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:59AM (#32686769)
Argentina has had high inflation for years before the Ukraine war.

The printing never stops

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by rovolo on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:26PM (#32684177)
> Inflation is not the result of profits, gouging, etc.

Inflation is the measure of the price of goods

> It's the result of funding the deficit by running the printing press

Increasing the money supply indirectly increases the price of goods. It matters in the long run, but the price of goods can change in the short-term based on supply. The oil crisis of the 1970s caused oil prices to increase because oil supply was limited. This would have caused inflation even without an increased money supply.

> creating debt backed by nothing. ... fiat money systems.

This is more of a tangent, but the money supply can also shrink in fiat systems. Fiat currency can be shrunk via taxes. Debts can be defaulted. Fiat systems aren't inherently inflationary; but they target a low level of inflation because they prefer it to deflation.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @07:50PM (#32684883)
You can tell it's a monetary thing because you don't see deflation.

> Fiat systems aren't inherently inflationary; but they target a low level of inflation because they prefer it to deflation.

That's just the excuse. The real reason is so the government can spend money without raising taxes. So they sell you on the idea that inflation is good.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by selectodude on Thursday September 01, 2022 @09:40PM (#32685636)
Deflation deepens recessions and lowers investment. It is inherently bad. It has nothing to do with spending money without raising taxes. Countries that can borrow in their own currency can already do that in any environment. Heck, parts of Europe had negative interest rates to combat deflation.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by zx85wes on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:50AM (#32688317)
The eurozone only had a few quarters of deflation the past 25 years. The problem is that the ECB considers it main task to be providing governments in Southern Europe with cheap credit instead of focussing on price stability.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:34PM (#32685948)
> It has nothing to do with spending money without raising taxes.

Where do you think Biden's trillions in extra spending is coming from? Not from raising taxes.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by selectodude on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:55PM (#32686064)
The US has been deficit spending basically every year since 1929. Its impact on inflation is pretty questionable.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=Tk32

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:30PM (#32686258)
Look at it as percent of the money supply. And you didn't answer the question.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by mr_toad on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:48PM (#32686377)
> The proof is the observation that endemic inflation only happens in countries with fiat money systems.

More generally anything that increases the money supply. Non-fiat monetary systems have suffered from inflation due to debasement of the currency or an influx of precious metals use to create coins (e.g. when gold from the new world flooded the Spanish economy).

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by DrNosferatu on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:53AM (#32689140)
How do you justify the current record corporate profits?

Also, Quantitative Easing was literally printing money and yet EU rates (inflation & sovereign debt interest) remained low, many times negative - with some EU countries observing actual deflation.

Only when the supply shock did happen (Covid & Ukraine), rates started to increase. And only after that, price gouging practices started by riding the supply shock public perception - resulting in said record corporate profits.

If there was inflation caused by excess money, how could corporate profits be at record highs?

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:08PM (#32695195)
If gouging worked, why wouldn't corporations have been doing it all along?

Besides, if inflation is 10%, profits would have to rise 10% just to stay even.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by DrNosferatu on Saturday September 03, 2022 @03:10AM (#32699500)
Already answered that: corporations are surfing the public perception/impact of supply chain constraints and gas/fuel shortage - and taking advantage of that to raise prices and their respective profit margin. Nope: structural inflation implies clear degradation of profits due to increased operating costs - yet, profits recently increased to record highs.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by confidantlake on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:08PM (#32685794)
What countries don't have a fiat money system?
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:36PM (#32685956)
The US before 1914.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by dalyons on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:19AM (#32686873)
Ah yes let’s use data from 100+ years ago from a nearly pre-industrial economy as the basis for what we should do today
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:12PM (#32695229)
The US economy industrialized in the 19th century. 1700-1800 would be pre-industrial.

Besides, America did try fiat money with the colonial government, and again in the Civil War. Particularly in the Confederacy.

Each of those instances suffered from galloping inflation.

Interestingly, in each of the two gold rushes, the US had inflation due to the influx of gold.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by confidantlake on Friday September 02, 2022 @07:27AM (#32689353)
That would be had. I was asking have.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:12PM (#32695233)
No current country has been able to resist the lure of printing free money. They are also unified in denying that such printing causes inflation.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by andrekandre on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:19PM (#32684128)
i think the better question to ask is, whats the bigger contributor to inflation of prices recently...?

gas prices? electronics supply issues? general supply chain issues? (expected soon) energy/food supply issues?

how does commodity money fix that?

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @09:22PM (#32685523)
Creating trillions of dollars with the stroke of a pen and then showering that onto the economy.

It's Supply&Demand at work. Create lots of money (add Supply) and the value of it goes down (Inflation).

The same thing happens to the price of refrigerators if 10 million gets dumped on the market. The price for a refrigerator goes down.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by andrekandre on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:36AM (#32686990)
from what i understand, when the fed does stimulus, they have to take out a loan/bond so as long as the "value" is canceled out by the loaned "debt" im not sure why its going to create inflation?
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:14PM (#32695248)
Because there is nothing backing it. Normal bank loans are not inflationary because collateral must be supplied to back it up. No collateral, no loan.

For example, if you take out a mortgage, your house is collateral.

The government just issues more debt to pay off the old debt.