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Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by DrNosferatu on Thursday September 01, 2022 @01:40PM (#32680076)
Very difficult to change because, in the "Pax Neoliberalia" world we live in, profits are Sacrosanct - and the higher the capital concentration, the holier so. But some straightforward fixes:

1. Flood the market with affordable state housing, Austria-style - with the bonus of building new, boosting the national economy.

2. Create very progressive (rapidly rising) taxes based on property value - making untenable the current practice of parking money and profit by simply buying & holding empty flats and the like.

3. Raise salaries - currently portuguese salaries, and their weight on GDP, rank the lowest in the EU.

(and no, it won't create an inflation spiral: the current inflation spike is, first and foremost, the result of a supply shock, price-gouging and speculative/cartel practices - corporate profits being at a record high is proof of that)

Unfortunately, incentives are heavily stacked on leaving things as they are, as the ruling class is mostly made up of the landlord class, and, is not sensitive to (sometimes even not aware of) the struggles of assetless commoners that only earn income from their (low) salaried labor. Or, even worse, stands to lose their current large gains on capital/assets if this is fixed - and most portuguese media outlets trumpet their - private - master's voice and interests. Additionally, just leaving things as they are, also scores brownie points with the EU by making the Government (even if "center-left") appear "frugal". And PM Costa has personal ambitions for future EU high office.

(...who will be the next head of the European Commission or the European Council?)

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @04:32PM (#32682721)
Inflation is not the result of profits, gouging, etc. It's the result of funding the deficit by running the printing press. (Or the modern equivalent, creating debt backed by nothing.)

The proof is the observation that endemic inflation only happens in countries with fiat money systems.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by sofixa on Thursday September 01, 2022 @05:12PM (#32683274)
I'm not sure you deserve engaging, but I'll give it a try.

So you're just going to ignore a war involving two of the biggest exporters of some of the main raw materials we have (foodstuffs and energy) on the planet and associated supply problems on crucial things? Not to mention a pandemic that wrecked havoc on supply lines. None of that matters, your theory goes, it's purely a monetary phenomenon, because only countries with fiat money systems are impacted. Could you share some countries with alternative money systems that aren't impacted?

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @05:29PM (#32683522)
If it was not caused by fiat money, I'd expect to see corresponding periods of deflation. Inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level. It is not a temporary spike from the fluctuations in supply&demand of goods and services.

Another way to understand it is to consider, what happens if the price of gas rises? Does that automatically put more money in your pocket to pay for it? Nope. You just have less money to spend on other things. But inflation (with a lag period) does put more money in your pocket.

> Could you share some countries with alternative money systems that aren't impacted?

Modern countries have all gone fiat. But we can look at the US from 1800-1914, which was not fiat money. There was zero net inflation in that period, while we've had endemic inflation ever since (aside from a brief period of deflation during the Depression).

> I'm not sure you deserve engaging

What I wrote is not the general opinion, though it is the opinion of economists. At least you were willing to talk about it, which is nice.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by selectodude on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:00PM (#32683893)
The value of fiat currency is roughly money supply divided by economic output. If the numerator rises faster than the denominator, well...

Obviously it's a more complicated than that, especially in the context of the US Dollar, but for smaller countries it's pretty basic stuff.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by spaceman_2020 on Thursday September 01, 2022 @05:39PM (#32683643)
Inflation isn’t terribly bad in countries that didn’t print wild amounts of money.

Like in India, inflation is almost back in control, and we didn’t print much money.

Same in China.

I haven’t run the numbers but if you were to chart inflation vs the money printing done by an economy, you’d likely find a positive correlation.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by unmole on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:29AM (#32686603)
If inflation is a purely monetary phenomenon caused by printing money, why do Telangana and Sikkim experience higher inflation than the national average?

> I haven’t run the numbers but if you were to chart inflation vs the money printing done by an economy, you’d likely find a positive correlation.

As a member of the Eurozone, Estonia can't print money. That didn't stop it from inflation hitting 23%.

It's almost as if inflation is influenced by local factors...

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by roenxi on Friday September 02, 2022 @05:41AM (#32688713)
> As a member of the Eurozone, Estonia can't print money. That didn't stop it from inflation hitting 23%.

Actually, according to Wikipedia, Estonia joined the Euro in 2010. There have been a lot of Euros created in the last few years (looking at the M2, we're roughly at the point where most Euro appeared after Estonia joined in to the project).

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:04PM (#32695169)
There's something else going on in Estonia, or arbitrage would be happening (importing cheaper stuff from the eurozone).
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jdougan on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:46AM (#32686700)
Cantillion effects possibly
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @05:41PM (#32683673)
The WSJ ran a chart a few weeks ago showing inflation lagged money printing by about 13 months.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Izikiel43 on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:59AM (#32686769)
Argentina has had high inflation for years before the Ukraine war.

The printing never stops

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by rovolo on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:26PM (#32684177)
> Inflation is not the result of profits, gouging, etc.

Inflation is the measure of the price of goods

> It's the result of funding the deficit by running the printing press

Increasing the money supply indirectly increases the price of goods. It matters in the long run, but the price of goods can change in the short-term based on supply. The oil crisis of the 1970s caused oil prices to increase because oil supply was limited. This would have caused inflation even without an increased money supply.

> creating debt backed by nothing. ... fiat money systems.

This is more of a tangent, but the money supply can also shrink in fiat systems. Fiat currency can be shrunk via taxes. Debts can be defaulted. Fiat systems aren't inherently inflationary; but they target a low level of inflation because they prefer it to deflation.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @07:50PM (#32684883)
You can tell it's a monetary thing because you don't see deflation.

> Fiat systems aren't inherently inflationary; but they target a low level of inflation because they prefer it to deflation.

That's just the excuse. The real reason is so the government can spend money without raising taxes. So they sell you on the idea that inflation is good.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by selectodude on Thursday September 01, 2022 @09:40PM (#32685636)
Deflation deepens recessions and lowers investment. It is inherently bad. It has nothing to do with spending money without raising taxes. Countries that can borrow in their own currency can already do that in any environment. Heck, parts of Europe had negative interest rates to combat deflation.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by zx85wes on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:50AM (#32688317)
The eurozone only had a few quarters of deflation the past 25 years. The problem is that the ECB considers it main task to be providing governments in Southern Europe with cheap credit instead of focussing on price stability.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:34PM (#32685948)
> It has nothing to do with spending money without raising taxes.

Where do you think Biden's trillions in extra spending is coming from? Not from raising taxes.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by selectodude on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:55PM (#32686064)
The US has been deficit spending basically every year since 1929. Its impact on inflation is pretty questionable.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=Tk32

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:30PM (#32686258)
Look at it as percent of the money supply. And you didn't answer the question.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by mr_toad on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:48PM (#32686377)
> The proof is the observation that endemic inflation only happens in countries with fiat money systems.

More generally anything that increases the money supply. Non-fiat monetary systems have suffered from inflation due to debasement of the currency or an influx of precious metals use to create coins (e.g. when gold from the new world flooded the Spanish economy).

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by DrNosferatu on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:53AM (#32689140)
How do you justify the current record corporate profits?

Also, Quantitative Easing was literally printing money and yet EU rates (inflation & sovereign debt interest) remained low, many times negative - with some EU countries observing actual deflation.

Only when the supply shock did happen (Covid & Ukraine), rates started to increase. And only after that, price gouging practices started by riding the supply shock public perception - resulting in said record corporate profits.

If there was inflation caused by excess money, how could corporate profits be at record highs?

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:08PM (#32695195)
If gouging worked, why wouldn't corporations have been doing it all along?

Besides, if inflation is 10%, profits would have to rise 10% just to stay even.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by DrNosferatu on Saturday September 03, 2022 @03:10AM (#32699500)
Already answered that: corporations are surfing the public perception/impact of supply chain constraints and gas/fuel shortage - and taking advantage of that to raise prices and their respective profit margin. Nope: structural inflation implies clear degradation of profits due to increased operating costs - yet, profits recently increased to record highs.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by confidantlake on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:08PM (#32685794)
What countries don't have a fiat money system?
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:36PM (#32685956)
The US before 1914.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by dalyons on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:19AM (#32686873)
Ah yes let’s use data from 100+ years ago from a nearly pre-industrial economy as the basis for what we should do today
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:12PM (#32695229)
The US economy industrialized in the 19th century. 1700-1800 would be pre-industrial.

Besides, America did try fiat money with the colonial government, and again in the Civil War. Particularly in the Confederacy.

Each of those instances suffered from galloping inflation.

Interestingly, in each of the two gold rushes, the US had inflation due to the influx of gold.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by confidantlake on Friday September 02, 2022 @07:27AM (#32689353)
That would be had. I was asking have.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:12PM (#32695233)
No current country has been able to resist the lure of printing free money. They are also unified in denying that such printing causes inflation.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by andrekandre on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:19PM (#32684128)
i think the better question to ask is, whats the bigger contributor to inflation of prices recently...?

gas prices? electronics supply issues? general supply chain issues? (expected soon) energy/food supply issues?

how does commodity money fix that?

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2022 @09:22PM (#32685523)
Creating trillions of dollars with the stroke of a pen and then showering that onto the economy.

It's Supply&Demand at work. Create lots of money (add Supply) and the value of it goes down (Inflation).

The same thing happens to the price of refrigerators if 10 million gets dumped on the market. The price for a refrigerator goes down.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by andrekandre on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:36AM (#32686990)
from what i understand, when the fed does stimulus, they have to take out a loan/bond so as long as the "value" is canceled out by the loaned "debt" im not sure why its going to create inflation?
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:14PM (#32695248)
Because there is nothing backing it. Normal bank loans are not inflationary because collateral must be supplied to back it up. No collateral, no loan.

For example, if you take out a mortgage, your house is collateral.

The government just issues more debt to pay off the old debt.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jollybean on Thursday September 01, 2022 @02:06PM (#32680533)
Well #1 is not 'straightfoward' fixes at all. Massive Real Estate buildouts are 'gigantic' industrial projects.

A 'straight forward fix' is to ban foreign ownership of homes and AirBnB. Poof. Now, I wouldn't support that, but it would be 'straight forward'.

#2 is reasonable.

#3 is a big glib tough. "Hey, everyone should just get a raise!", if it were only that easy!

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Tiktaalik on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:13PM (#32684044)
> Poof

This has pretty much already been done in Vancouver, which has layers of Foreign Buyer Taxes, Speculation Taxes, Empty Home Taxes and strict Airbnb regulation.

It absolutely did not make the problem go 'poof.'

All these things were well worth doing and helped in various ways, but it remains that the core underlying problem is that there's not enough homes for everyone and scarcity ensures high rents and high prices. The dull solution is that a hell of a lot of homes need to be built.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jollybean on Thursday September 01, 2022 @08:23PM (#32685141)
It has not been done in earnest in Vancouver. There's a 15 point 'one time' fee but it likely should be more, and/or an ongoing assessment i.e. higher annual taxes. Moreover, Canada gives away citizenship like candy and families have their kids live there.

AirBnB is still running strong as well, which should be much more heavily taxed.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Tiktaalik on Thursday September 01, 2022 @09:34PM (#32685589)
The government still keeps track of the amount of foreign buyers. It has plunged. It's likely that if it was a still a problem people would be doing something more but it's marginal at this point.

The biggest impacts have already happened. We had developers building hyper luxury condos explicitly marketed to an asian audience and overnight with the foreign buyer tax everyone stopped making those and the same developers have pivoted to building purpose built rental for locals.

The taxes worked. There's still a housing crisis.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by mistermann on Thursday September 01, 2022 @09:49PM (#32685678)
There's been nothing even remotely close to a ban, and it's highly uncertain the degree to which the new rules are even enforced. As with most things, Canadians are expected to Trust The Experts....and trust them they do!
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Tiktaalik on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:30PM (#32686256)
You don't need to trust the "experts" you can look at the data which is publicly available.

> In 2020, the share of foreigners in the fair market value of homes was almost zero.

> It was 0.56 percent to be exact, based on figures compiled by Brendon Ogmundson, chief economist with the B.C. Real Estate Association.

> Ogmundson used official B.C. government data on property transfer taxes.

https://www.straight.com/news/no-scapegoats-this-time-bc-eco...

Previously the government didn't track details around who was buying homes, and this is something that changed along with the foreign buyer tax.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by mistermann on Friday September 02, 2022 @05:19PM (#32695823)
> In 2020, the share of foreigners in the fair market value of homes was almost zero.

a) What is the precise meaning of "foreigners" in this context? How is it measured? When the identity is hidden behind a numbered company, does our expert source disclose that?

b) If someone who has gained citizenship then accepts a wire transfer of $10M+ (from someone who is not a citizen) and then proceeds to buy 10 houses (overbidding for each), is that "foreign" involvement?

c) By what methodology were these numbers compiled, from which data sources, and can people examine these processes with no restrictions?

> It was 0.56 percent to be exact, based on figures compiled by Brendon Ogmundson, chief economist with the B.C. Real Estate Association.

"Was" (to be within reality) "exact" and "based on..." is an interesting claim from an epistemological perspective. Is Mr. Ogmundson, chief economist with the B.C. Real Estate Association, guaranteed to be a trustworthy source of information?

> Ogmundson used official B.C. government data on property transfer taxes.

Is there some reason one should believe that this data, or the government that administers it, is trustworthy? (There is a fairly substantial amount of historic stories to believe that they are not.)

> Previously the government didn't track details around who was buying homes, and this is something that changed along with the foreign buyer tax.

There is what is claimed has changed, and what has actually changed. Often, the difference is impossible to resolve - it is also often difficult to realize that a difference between the two is even possible.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Tiktaalik on Saturday September 03, 2022 @12:41AM (#32698802)
When you buy a property your citizenship is now recorded. Previously it wasn't. We're now seeing the amount of people without Canadian citizenship has plunged. Before the tax was introduced in some areas of Metro Vancouver the amount of foreign buyers was relatively low, but in some areas the amount of foreigners was in the high teens, approaching 20%.

As the amount of foreign buyers is now explicitly recorded in all real estate purchases, presumably Mr. Ogmundson looked up that data. He wouldn't have had to do anything creative or difficult to come up with this data.

> Is there some reason one should believe that this data, or the government that administers it, is trustworthy?

If you're at the point where you're not trusting data the government collects I dunno man. Keep your tin foil hat on tight bud.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jollybean on Sunday September 04, 2022 @11:27AM (#32714052)
It's trivial to incorporate a business to buy property, I wonder how easy that circumvention is.

Canada is oddly one of the places in the world wherein it's difficult to discover who owns what.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Tiktaalik on Sunday September 04, 2022 @02:24PM (#32716095)
British Columbia is introducing a "beneficial ownership registry" as part of the foreign buyer tax stuff that would identify who actually owns what regardless of the numbered company that techncially owns it. Canada is bringing in one too.

"B.C.’s beneficial ownership registry being used in tax cases, visa applications"

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/arti...

BC is certainly the first place in Canada to do this and they haven't even finished the registry yet. Seems like it's quite tricky to sort out.

"B.C.’s land registry aimed at finding hidden owners bogged down by concerns over clarity, confidentiality" https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/arti...

Even though the thing isn't fully up and running yet, the government has been so clear years ago that they will do this that it probably would have had a chilling effect on future purchases.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by DrNosferatu on Thursday September 01, 2022 @02:19PM (#32680710)
1. "banning foreign ownership" would result in Portugalexit at best, perhaps a Zairization of Portugal, or even worse - no thanks.

What's wrong with large industrial projects?

It's exactly what we need at this moment - in fact, both Portugal and EU-scale.

This would cost a small fraction of the Quantitative Easing program from the European Central Bank.

(and these Massive Real Estate buildouts must include the lessons in Urbanism learned from past such projects)

2. (y)

3. State sector raises salaries, private sector is forced to follow. Just raising minimum wage is positive, but not enough. This tends to compress people to the bottom salary tier and promote even more brain drain.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jollybean on Thursday September 01, 2022 @02:46PM (#32681130)
Large industrial projects are gigantic efforts that involve billions of dollars and years/decades to take effect, massive capital requirements. And risk.

"State sector raises salaries, private sector is forced to follow." ... my god man, no, that's not how it works.

More like: "Already inefficient state bureaucracies raise salaries, attracting workers from private sector who cannot afford to pay higher wages, requiring massive budgetary increase from government i.e. 'more taxes' just as economy goes into tailspin due to private sector layoffs.

Probably the EU needs to re-think the fact that it's designed to send all young workers to Germany or at least out of Portugual/Spain/S. Italy and Greece and leave them as octegenarian tourist centres with illegal Turkish workers doing the actual work.

Either 1) the EU starts massive transfer payments or 2) get rid of the Euro and have some limits on mobility, or it will just limp along. #1 might require political and fiscal integration which would probably just exasperate the problem.

In the short term, they should probably raise taxes on foreign home ownership.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by DrNosferatu on Saturday September 03, 2022 @03:21AM (#32699550)
Large industrial projects brought most of the civilization advances we enjoy today: What were then Concorde, the US Interstate Highway System, LHC, Hoover Dam and the Apollo Program?

But yes, Europe needs a genuine Hamiltonian Moment (share the debt burden) and also a genuine New Deal, instead of the current beggar-thy-neighbor EU order where Germany & friends benefit all.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by stjohnswarts on Thursday September 01, 2022 @03:48PM (#32682047)
(1). why not just make it painful to be a foreigner there. Raise taxes on rent/property if you're foreign by 3-4x (or whatever makes sense after an analysis of building new housing from foreigner tax dollars). If you don't want to scare off the ones already there then make it not retroactive. People like to make these situations tougher than they need to be. Mostly it's impossible because politicians are paid off by the 1% (foreign and domestic). The Portuguese have a right to enjoy their country without foreigners coming in and buying it off and pushing them to the edge of poverty. Globalism has got us in a tenuous situation in the West depending completely on the likes of China for our style of living. I can understand the Portuguese being angry with the situation.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by unmole on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:42AM (#32686672)
> why not just make it painful to be a foreigner there

In a country with a TFR of ~1.4 and a median age of ~47. What could possibly go wrong? It's not like Portugal is seeing a declining population or anything. Oh, wait.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by spaniard89277 on Thursday September 01, 2022 @04:34PM (#32682736)
> 1. "banning foreign ownership" would result in Portugalexit at best, perhaps a Zairization of Portugal, or even worse - no thanks.

What? This makes no sense. You basically leave out a large chunk of the induced demand. There you have your prices lowering.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by ido on Thursday September 01, 2022 @04:36PM (#32682770)
I haven't seen number 1 actually "fix" Vienna's rental market? I mean it's not as crazy as other places, but I moved to Vienna in 2005 (since moved out) and it used to be a lot more affordable to rent in than today (even adjusting for inflation). So it's not that it's completely ineffective but it's not on it's own enough.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by TulliusCicero on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:40PM (#32684301)
How much new housing have they been adding YoY?

When people suggest that adding more new housing, either public or private, doesn't work, this is usually left out: how much housing actually was being added?

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by andreilys on Thursday September 01, 2022 @08:14PM (#32685084)
Yes I’m sure inflation has everything to do with price gouging and nothing to do with the trillions of dollars printed by the Fed. Because of course, money printer go brrr with no repercussions right?
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Tade0 on Friday September 02, 2022 @03:44AM (#32687834)
Essentially.

Looking at Switzerland, which printed a lot of money in the past years but still has low inflation and had mostly deflation over the same period, there isn't a simple connection between money supply and inflation.

Inflation isn't merely a monetary issue.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by golergka on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:56AM (#32689163)
Why don't you include the most obvious, free market, capitalist solution of all: just let people build more housing?

It won't be affordable at first, of course, but as you flood the market with new high-rise apartments, the price will inevitably plummet.