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Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by a_shovel on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:47AM (#32663795)
> ...we worked with our Proudflare employee resource group to identify an organization that supported LGBTQ+ rights and donate 100 percent of the fees for our services to them.

I'm sure their LGBTQ+ employees will appreciate that when they get doxxed, swatted, and harassed every hour of the day and night because they're providing critical resources to the groups doing so.

Their position probably really does come from genuine belief in principles of anti-censorship and free speech, but the version that LGBTQ+ people are gonna hear from them is that every death threat, every picture of them taken without their knowledge, every coordinated campaign of harassment, every SWAT officer pointing a gun at their face when they wake up, every suicide after years of abuse, has the full backing and support of a multi-billion dollar corporation, and there's nothing they can do about it. And they're kinda right.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by shrubble on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:49AM (#32663826)
So, you have at least one example of this scenario (gay Cloudflare employee gets doxxed and harassed) ready to tell us about, right?
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by chc on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:53AM (#32663914)
I can provide lots of examples of Kiwi Farms doxxing and harassing queer people. Whether they happen to work for Cloudflare at the time is a matter of chance, and not particularly relevant to the point.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by Bigpet on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:33PM (#32664664)
Swatting people is illegal, if you have evidence of a crime you should bring it to the police, not to cloudflare.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by sascha_sl on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:40PM (#32664776)
Oh, what willful ignorance. KF is the kind of "technically legal" operation that the charge of racketeering was invented for. Everyone knows what's happening and why things are laid out as they are, but nobody immediately responsible for the illegal act can be found.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by Bigpet on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:45PM (#32664847)
Then charge them with racketeering.

If that doesn't work make the part you don't like illegal. Enshrine something like the "right to be forgotten" stuff into law and make them take down threads if the people they refer to don't want them up.

I know it's hard to word something like a "right to be forgotten" without making it to broad and a tool for abuse of chilling speech but it seems worth the effort if the consequences are this dire.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by dmatech on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:06PM (#32665195)
A "right to be forgotten" is probably fundamentally incompatible with the First Amendment in the USA. While people have the right to their own identity, they do not have the right to absolute control over their reputations. The best they can do is sue when they are defamed.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by sascha_sl on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:08PM (#32665218)
Making defamation lawsuits less inaccessible to a significantly poorer party would be a start.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by MichaelCollins on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @02:20PM (#32666229)
In America defamation lawsuits are hard because of the First Amendment, not just because lawsuits are expensive. Even if you make defamation lawsuits cheap and accessible, it will still be an uphill battle if you're trying to sue somebody telling unsavory truths about you.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by anigbrowl on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @04:38PM (#32668035)
One problem is that one can't bring a prosecution oneself; not only does the state maintain a general monopoly on the use of violence, but it typically maintains a monopoly on prosecution. If police or prosecutors dislike you (perhaps because you are a member of some socially disfavored out group) what recourse do you have?
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by sascha_sl on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:51PM (#32664947)
I already live in an EU country - as do many of the people with threads on KF. I don't even have the minuscule amount of control voters in the US would have over this, and Cloudflare only cares about US legislation (as with the anti sex work legislation in the article).

If you would stop derailing the conversation with unfeasible solutions.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by sascha_sl on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:59AM (#32664046)
I haven't checked, but I expect the chilling effect is getting most of them to not rock the boat too hard.

If you want an example for such targeting though, Liz Fong-Jones has a thread on Kiwifarms because she's outspoken and worked at Google (and thus being seen as more influential / more of a threat). The thread has also significantly slowed down after she left Google.

[dead]
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by delroth on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:28PM (#32665534)
> made public for obvious reasons

Read: to put a target on the back of anyone making an abuse report about the website.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by splitrocket on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @02:10PM (#32666106)
We will soon enough, now that cloudflare has published this.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by devwastaken on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:37PM (#32664730)
And when that happens, Cloudflare is in the perfect position to provide evidence. Your unwittingly advocating for these websites to use more sophisticated methods, where their actions will be much harder to prove and prosecute.

If not Cloudflare, then someone else, that's the reality of it. We do not live in a world of no harm and never will we. All we can do is manage it.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by throwrqX on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:17PM (#32665375)
I can't find it now but I remember reading an article a while back about how the FBI with several other worldwide law enforcement partner took down a terrorist website, but behind the scenes the CIA or NSA wasn't happy about it because they had all the information in one place they could tap but now that the FBI disrupted that it made their job harder.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by zja on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @03:54PM (#32667469)
> If not Cloudflare, then someone else, that's the reality of it.

When has this ever been a valid excuse for bad behavior?

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by devwastaken on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @07:55PM (#32669916)
Nobody said it was.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by wyager on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:47PM (#32665780)
KF doesn't doxx people for being gay. As far as I can tell, KF has a huge LGBT presence in their userbase. They have doxxed people who are gay, but not because they are gay.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by sascha_sl on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:56AM (#32663975)
And all that while the company refuses to acknowledge that it is full backing.

Cloudflare loves to call back on the law when defending Kiwifarms, but then equate themselves to a public utility.

If the law intended for it, DDoS protection would be a public utility or at least a protected class of service that can't refuse customers. And if you say that it should be and the law is just lagging behind (and I'd tend to agree with you), I can say the same thing about the technical legality of a website that enabled and (indirectly) incentives doxing, harassment or even swatting (except on Kiwifarms, people might technically have a case for defamation, but good luck getting that prosecuted).

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by cowtools on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:05PM (#32664190)
The law describes DDoS attacks as a felony. The technology makes it such that it's infeasable to prevent DDoS attacks without a centralized entity like cloudflare.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by sascha_sl on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:10PM (#32664265)
But that still doesn't make Cloudflare the fire brigade. It is still their policy decision to value the freedom of speech of Kiwifarms more than the safety of those KF target, no matter how much they try to pretend they have an obligation to protect everyone that asks for it and are thus not at all partially responsible for enabling harassment - to the point of suicide in at least 3 cases. They don't have to protect them. That responsibility would be with lawmakers and the executive branch. Just as it would be their responsibility to enable feasible prosecution of defamation on the site. They don't do either.
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by Dylan16807 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @02:41PM (#32666533)
> But that still doesn't make Cloudflare the fire brigade.

Why not? That particular service seems a lot like a volunteer fire brigade.

Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by sascha_sl on Thursday September 01, 2022 @03:27AM (#32673146)
Are the Proud Boys like a volunteer fire brigade because they provide "security services" too?
Re:Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach by Dylan16807 on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:42AM (#32678048)
The fact that you have to use scare quotes makes it clear that the answer is no. So I'm not sure what your point is.