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Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by cjsawyer on Monday August 29, 2022 @01:29PM (#32640952)
I miss being able to actually refuse an update. Or even being able to disable them!
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by techsupporter on Monday August 29, 2022 @02:06PM (#32641399)
Or that every ducking time an application developer pushes an update, they feel the need to pop up something in front of me the next time I open the application. The worst time to do that is when I first open the application because that's when I've made the intentional choice to use it to get something done and the last thing I want is for that flow to be interrupted.

The irritation is tripled if it's an un-skippable "let us walk you through the nineteen changes in a slowly constructed slideshow!"

This is second only to applications that don't properly retain state--especially after an update--so every time I open them I get a brief glimpse of what once was (and what I probably wanted to go back to) before I get a 50/50 split of being dumped to the application home screen or "oops, something has gone wrong! lol, software, yannow! Please to be logging in once more, thx."

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by kbelder on Monday August 29, 2022 @06:32PM (#32644416)
"We've improved the way you interact with our app!"

    >click next.
Cursor slowly moves to the upper-right corner of the screen. "We've added a 'search by topic' functionality to our help menu! No more need to scroll alphabetically!"

    >click next
Cursor slowly moves to the lower left corner of the screen. A red circles appears, pulsing. "The toolbar now displays the two-letter country code that your operating system is set to. Useful for travelers!"

    >click next
Cursor slowly moves to the upper middle of the screen. A popup appears. "If you have forgotten to fill out your phone number and email address in the Account Options, a helpful reminder will appear each time you start the program. This will help you reap a number of useful benefits that sharing your information allows!"
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by techsupporter on Monday August 29, 2022 @08:32PM (#32645327)
[opens new browser window on phone]

[support . apple . com]

"Hello, my inquiry is whether or not AppleCare+ covers spontaneously throwing my laptop out the window thus it falls down three stories into a storm drain. No, this is purely hypothetical. Yes, I'll wait while you research."

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by dleslie on Monday August 29, 2022 @02:31PM (#32641726)
If your feature requires a tutorial _for all users_ then it shouldn't be shipped.

I'm strict on this; I return video games with unskippable tutorials. It's cause for an immediate Alt-F4 and return to store.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by barnabee on Monday August 29, 2022 @05:45PM (#32643958)
If it requires a tutorial for all users, that’s called a manual and it doesn’t have to appear on launch or force you to read it. Unskippable step by step tooltip guides are the absolute worst.

Many features are better off hard to find and left that way than shoved-in-your-face discoverable, or introduced by a tutorial. Those who want to get the most out of their tools will find them and will appreciate you treating them like fellow intelligent beings. The rest will never know what they missed and won’t worry about it either.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by babypuncher on Monday August 29, 2022 @08:37PM (#32645353)
> If it requires a tutorial for all users, that’s called a manual and it doesn’t have to appear on launch or force you to read it. Unskippable step by step tooltip guides are the absolute worst.

Lots of game developers have conducted extensive research and found that player retention is considerably higher when you "annoy" them with these things rather than just throw them to the wolves and tell them to RTFM.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by dleslie on Monday August 29, 2022 @10:16PM (#32645918)
As a game developer, I am aware of this.

There's basically two reasons to make games: to make money, or to make art. You can try to do both at once, of course; and focusing on one doesn't necessarily detract from the other.

Consider FromSoftware, for instance; often pilloried by the gaming press for their lack of difficulty scaling or tutorials, but adored by their fans and able to turn a tidy profit with each release. Similar, but less well-known, would be Spiderweb Software; which has steamrolled along for decades without breaking their artistic style.

Not everyone wants to be the next Candy Crush or Clash of Clans; many just want to create an experience that they would enjoy.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by babypuncher on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @12:58AM (#32646772)
I don't think the presence of tutorials automatically count against artistic merit, unless they are done badly.

From Software games are more hands-off because their goal is to make the player discover the mechanics and systems on their own. Not every game wants to do that, and as such I don't think games like Halo: Combat Evolved or The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time are automatically worse for this. In the latter case, I think the unskippable tutorial section pulls double duty in setting up Link's backstory; You're with him as he first learns how to fight, use his shield, etc. before going off on a grand adventure.

From Soft games are also not immune to the unskippable tutorial mission. Both Elden Ring and Sekiro start you off in a relatively safe linear level with pop ups teaching you their basic mechanics.

I want to circle around back to the comment that started this though, because that user said they immediately uninstall and refund any game with an unskippable tutorial. Maybe they meant this as hyperbole and I'm just sitting here wooshed, but it seems like an extreme stance to take.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by dleslie on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @12:35PM (#32652302)
I'm that user who made that claim. ;)

Indeed, tutorials do come in a great many varieties, and when it's done well the user may not even be aware that what they're experiencing is a tutorial. That has a strong tradition in game development; where a new ability or a new tool is provided to the user and the level is designed thereafter to allow the user to explore that new thing. That's closer to your Zelda or Halo.

Even FromSoftware games take this approach. Elden Ring has a whole opening stage that's clearly designed to expose users to core gameplay mechanics.

But then there's those unskippable dialogues, or the tedious "now press this input to perform this action" prompt found within a purpose-built tutorial area. Those, specifically those, are what I find cause for immediate product return.

There was some Need For Speed games on the PSP that were particularly awful for this. You'd be _racing_ and it would pause the gameplay to show you a dialog about how to drift or draft or somesuch; completely breaking the flow of the experience. That's what I would demand a refund for.

That said, art is subjective, and the experience is ultimately defined by the beholder. Maybe some people actually enjoy being brow beaten with unskippable prompts and hand-held through tediously constrained environments, with their experience jarringly interrupted at unexpected times by dialogs that break the suspension of disbelief.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by whynaut on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @08:30AM (#32649517)
Fromsoft has unskippable tutorials in most of their games, going back to Demon’s Souls. Perhaps they were designed well enough that you didn’t notice?
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by dleslie on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @12:38PM (#32652338)
The important thing is that they don't feel like tutorials.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by AndrewDucker on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @04:23AM (#32659706)
The opening level of (nearly) every From game has a whole section with tips on the floor and easy enemies to try them out on.

The Northern Asylum in Dark Souls is one long unskippable tutorial.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by barnabee on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @06:08AM (#32648564)
Maximising user/player attention should be a non-goal or at least come with a warning sticker so I can avoid it or treat it appropriately.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by ThunderSizzle on Monday August 29, 2022 @05:28PM (#32643801)
How does Left 4 Dead's style fall in to this (assuming the intro vid would've required on first run)

The tutorial is basically the intro video with some tool tips periodically in game.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by babypuncher on Monday August 29, 2022 @08:35PM (#32645342)
I can't imagine getting that pissed off over what is at worst a one-time 5-10 minute annoyance.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by babypuncher on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @12:49AM (#32646735)
If I applied this rigorous requirement to all games I purchase then I would have ended up missing out on some of the best games I've ever played. Like Ocarina of Time or Halo.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by dleslie on Monday August 29, 2022 @01:39PM (#32641095)
I miss knowing that updates even happened. I also miss important features remaining stable.

Which is why, for the most part, I've stopped using web-based applications.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by ethbr0 on Monday August 29, 2022 @01:41PM (#32641119)
You want a chuckle, turn off automatic app updates on an Android phone and see how many prompts you get. And how terrible the patch notes are ("Fixed some things")
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by dleslie on Monday August 29, 2022 @01:59PM (#32641328)
In fact, my Android 11 device has no browser enabled, the play store is disabled, and almost every app it came with is disabled. It functions solely for email, instant messaging, a TODO tracker, and taking photos.

Edit: not sure why this was downvoted. Did someone find the idea of a narrowly-focused phone to be offensive or unworthy of discussion?

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by xwolfi on Monday August 29, 2022 @08:28PM (#32645291)
We know but OP was telling you to experiment: turn off auto update and turn on the play store, and see how many prompts you get.

We're not sure why you went to describe how you read emails, and that's why we downvote you. Your answer was completely irrelevant !

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by dleslie on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @07:37PM (#32656559)
There's almost nothing to auto-update on my device, aside from less than a couple of IM apps and an email app. Sharing that info was the point of my reply.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by actionablefiber on Monday August 29, 2022 @03:41PM (#32642575)
I wonder if developers who do this simply don't want to publicly identify and take responsibility for bugs that they introduced earlier. It's easier to just say "bug fixes" then it is to say something like "I overlooked several surprisingly common edge cases in the parser module and have updated it to correctly handle several character sequences that were causing exceptions to be thrown." With automatic updates and vague update notes, anyone who did not directly experience the bug never has to know it existed in the first place and the developer never has to admit it existed in the first place.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by whynaut on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @08:31AM (#32649539)
In my experience, these notes aren’t written by devs in bigger companies.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by bluGill on Monday August 29, 2022 @02:11PM (#32641475)
I have 25 applications on my android that never get updated. I don't use gmail, and I don't want it installed on my phone at all. (I have the mandatory account to activate the phone, but all my mail is via fastmail). I update the apps I use (or sometimes apps I think I should use but don't)
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by jjav on Monday August 29, 2022 @05:01PM (#32643499)
> (I have the mandatory account to activate the phone, but all my mail is via fastmail).

Interesting, I don't have a google account associated with my phone. It means the google app store doesn't work, but everything else works fine AFAIK. I use FDroid or just download apks directly.

Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by OkGoDoIt on Monday August 29, 2022 @02:25PM (#32641663)
Nowadays even on iPhone half the apps phone home to their server, determine they’re not running the latest version, and then refuse to let you use them until you update.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by babypuncher on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @12:44AM (#32646716)
If the APIs backing the app have changed, then this is better than letting the user deal with the consequences of undefined behaviors.
Re:DevOps: An idea so good, no one admits they don’t do it by babypuncher on Monday August 29, 2022 @08:29PM (#32645304)
On the flipside, browsers not auto-updating would be both a security nightmare and make web development miserable.