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Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by jdasdf on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:20AM (#32618153)
>We're rapidly approaching the point at which the only thing that's going to work is rationing.

Or, get this, we stop shooting ourselves in the foot, and allow businesses to purchase russian energy again.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by ShivShankaran on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:43AM (#32618336)
It's too late for this. The world is already fragmented and even in Russian gas were allowed, Russia would start reducing supplies and divert then to Asia and Africa.

Mark my words: this is the end of western hegemony.

Especially since brics is taking off, they are launching their own currency and tons of countries want to join it.

Bojo was a complete bozo to amp up the war.

Elect a clown, expect a circus

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by fabian2k on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:42AM (#32618335)
The EU sanctions don't include energy, but Russia reduced the amount of gas it delivers to Europe.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by foverzar on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:13PM (#32621042)
> The EU sanctions don't include energy > Russia reduced the amount of gas it delivers to Europe.

There are sanctions preventing Nord Stream 2 pipeline to be used. Sanctions also obstruct maintenance and normal operation of Nord Stream 1 pipeline, which had caused the reduction.

One could argue that Russia is not being too consumer-oriented and is overly pedantic in legal maters, but this is hardly surprising at the current level of relations.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by jdasdf on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:50AM (#32618394)
Would they have reduced it if there hadn't been sanctions?

Come on now...

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by tomjen3 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:37AM (#32620154)
Or this one: we stop pussy footing around, get our fingers dirty in the war and start bombing the shit out of Russia, with the clear promise that we stop the moment they agree to a peace deal that leaves Ukraine with their country, and the west in control of the oil fields. We will continue to maintain them and we will pay Russia for the gas, minus a percentage fee to help rebuild Ukraine, but there will be no more gas blackmail.

Russia can't defeat Ukraine with Nato weapons. Once the gloves are of they can either take the deal with the international coalition now and get all the money for no work, or become even more of a joke and take the deal later anyway.

No nukes need fly, because we are not an existential threat and Russia cannot do much in a conventional war.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by foverzar on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:27PM (#32621165)
> Or this one: we stop pussy footing around, get our fingers dirty in the war and start bombing the shit out of Russia

Don't expect that this will end up being as nice and comfy as bombing other 3rd world countries, which is the only military expertise that NATO had had for decades.

A few hypersonic Kinzhals with tactical nuclear warheads would surely be a refreshing response to NATO's typical "hit-and-run" tactics.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by tomjen3 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:29PM (#32622269)
That would result in an all out nuclear war.

That would leave Putin with no power. So no, that is not going to happen.

As for how competent Russia is, we have seen that. They are not.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by foverzar on Saturday August 27, 2022 @04:44PM (#32623003)
> That would result in an all out nuclear war.

Says who?

Just as you don't expect an immediate all out nuclear armageddon as a response to your attempts to "bomb shit out of Russia", there won't be an "armageddon" response when Russia retaliates wiping a few crucial military installations from with the face of the Earth.

Nah, going all out with a civilisation-ending scenario would be the last resort, when everything is lost, and every other possible and dislikable option had been exhausted.

Up until then it will be a nice long and bloody escalation. Tactical nukes, chemical and bio-weapons provocations, assassinations, terrorist attacks, mass mobilisation and conscription -- all the fun stuff akin to what had been done to the Arab world, but on a much grander scale and incomparably higher stakes.

I'd doubt even the US would able to sit this one out. Can't imagine their shock from an actual real war, given what kind of tragedies were mere child's play things like 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by trasz on Monday September 05, 2022 @03:09AM (#32721401)
Indeed, and that's where the current strategy comes from: bleed Russia in a slow, humane way. Russia already can't escalate using conventional means, simply because they no longer have the people nor hardware required to do so.

Except of course Ukrainians are paying for it with their lives, sacrificing themselves for the safety of the rest of the world.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by foverzar on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @06:19AM (#32748763)
> Except of course Ukrainians are paying for it with their lives, sacrificing themselves for the safety of the rest of the world.

You meant that they are conscripted/mobilized and sent for slaughter for the safety of establishment's political interests?

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by pydry on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:27AM (#32618205)
It's sad that the only workable solution has become politically untouchable.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by jl6 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:31AM (#32618241)
This is somewhat like deciding that the reintroduction of slavery is the only workable solution to rising labor costs.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by ShivShankaran on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:44AM (#32618353)
This is grossly way over exxageration without understanding the geopolitics.

So US currently engaged in Syria , Iraq and Libya is also slavery?

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by pydry on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:28AM (#32618715)
1) Keep Ukraine out of NATO 2) respect the results of a landslide referendum 3) independence for the donbass

Im not sure any of those are akin to slavery. Choosing #2 as a hill we shall die on is particularly galling.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by adgjlsfhk1 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:31PM (#32620683)
ah yes, the landslide referendum staffed by soldiers who shoot you if you write stay in Ukraine on a poll that has options of join Russia or join Russia.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by pydry on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:14PM (#32621053)
The poll of what were largely ethnic Russians that Kyiv declared illegal to run under any circumstances whose results were corroborated almost exactly one year later by Western pollsters.

The poll where Russian soldiers pointed guns at crimeans in polling stations happened only in people's imaginations.

I, for one, am looking forward to dying of cold this winter on the principle of rejecting a democratic vote in Eastern Europe while we lavish support on such good and free countries as Saudi Arabia that only invade their neighbor in a good way.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by ShivShankaran on Saturday August 27, 2022 @04:07PM (#32622681)
You are preaching too much sense to indoctrinated western people that are under the worst propaganda in the history of humanity.

This is the hill the western hegemony dies then let it be. The fbi is tracking all anti-nato comments so just be careful

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by TheLoafOfBread on Saturday August 27, 2022 @05:27PM (#32623383)
Aluminum hat on your head.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by ShivShankaran on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:17PM (#32624830)
It's actually tin. But thanks for your concern.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by LandR on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:10AM (#32619215)
4% of British gas was imported from Russia.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by knorker on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:22PM (#32621128)
Implying that it shouldn't have much of a price effect?

That's only true on elastic consumption.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by micromacrofoot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:31AM (#32618243)
stop shooting yourselves in the foot so you can shoot ukrainians in the back?
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by bsaul on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:36AM (#32618292)
If europe is destroyed this winter because of riots or total economy collapse, ukrainians won’t have anyone anymore to back them up. It may be an horrible dilemma but buying russian gaz while still maintaining embargo on anything else may still be the best sustainable solution to fight russia in the long run.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by ben_w on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:04AM (#32618488)
I think there's room for a lot of possible outcomes worse than zero fuel from Russia and also better than total economic collapse of Europe.

I mean, Europe's got something like 7 times the economy of Russia. And two European countries also have nukes and are on the UN permanent security council. If the sanctions against Russia weren't enough to stop the war, this winter is unlikely to be bad enough to stop Europen support of Ukraine.

Conversely, if Russia finds that it can wield its fuel as a weapon capable of destroying Europe by either riots or total economic collapse, then Europe automatically has an existential threat that only ends when Russia can no longer play that card.

And America will do what serves American interests, not necessarily what serves European interests, and they're not threatened by Russia cutting off its gas exports.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by neilwilson on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:46AM (#32618363)
I doubt Russia will be supplying anybody in the West this Winter. Too much “maintenance” to do.

But it makes sense from their point of view. The only reason to export to the West is to swap for real goods and services from the West. Since the West isn’t selling anything to Russia there’s little economic reason for Russia to sell anything to the West.

Russia has its own floating rate currency. It has no need of our promises.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by bsaul on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:55AM (#32618436)
I don’t believe the narrative that russia is doing just fine. A country with the economy the size of Italy can’t survive being cut of all their major commercial partners and sources of income all of the sudden, while at the same time being blacklisted from all international economical institution. It just isn’t possible. They most likely do all they can to pretend like everything’s ok, hoping the situation will settle before everything explodes.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by dbsights on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:03PM (#32620426)
Russia is very different from Italy, they have local production of almost all goods. I think you're right that a western country that was cut off like Russia would have failed as you predict. That Russia hasn't should tell you that your understanding of their situation is wrong. I think we'll really see that this winter.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by neilwilson on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:53PM (#32625606)
"and sources of income all of the sudden"

I explained why it isn't their source of income. They have their own currency with a floating exchange rate. Therefore what you think is their 'source of income' isn't. The FX system means that a Russian exporters 'source of income' (that which they use to pay their staff and suppliers) is the expenditure of the Russian importer, or the generosity of the Russian government sector - primarily the Bank of Russia. [0]

In local currency terms it is the Bank of Russia buying the gas, not the EU. That maintains the rouble monetary circulation in Russia, countering the drain to Rouble net savings and taxation.

[0]: https://new-wayland.com/blog/how-russian-gas-is-paid-for/

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by foverzar on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:47PM (#32621364)
> A country with the economy the size

"Size" of economy is not a real metrics.

You can have a huge-ass economy based on providing high-margin services, but it would be worthless if it is not sustainable.

On the other hand, take Russia that does not really do much of global market high-margin services economy, but has sustainable enough industries.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by moltar on Saturday August 27, 2022 @06:11PM (#32623748)
Soviet Union existed not long ago and was pretty much self sustaining even without China. With China being the world producer of everything and being friends with Russia they won’t have any problems getting anything they need.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by rasz on Sunday August 28, 2022 @02:49AM (#32626349)
USSR was "self sustaining" by draining resources out of satellite states. Majority of steel, coal, grain and meat production was earmarked for USSR.

As for problems getting anything, they cant even source potatoes for something as basic as fries.

Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by moltar on Sunday August 28, 2022 @08:23AM (#32627837)
How’s that different today? The satellite friendly states still exist. And they want stuff Russia has? They can trade?
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by anon9384929 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:48AM (#32618381)
This comment conveniently ignores the worlds sole superpower? The US will be more or less fine this winter, and likely sees a crisis like this as an awfully cheap way to get rid of one of its only real military competitors.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by djbebs on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:44AM (#32618349)
I'm not Ukrainian, so my interests aren't the same as theirs.
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by micromacrofoot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:51AM (#32619661)
surely you’re human though, the ukrainian interest is to not be murdered by invaders…
Re:UK energy bills are soaring to record highs by jdasdf on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:35AM (#32626764)
They can have those interests for sure.

That doesn't mean their interests are the same as mine.

I'm not ukrainian, or russian, whatever the outcome of the conflict won't really affect my country unless we go out of our way to involve ourselves in it.

If staying out of it results in cheaper gas at the pump for me, then that's what we should do.