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Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:24AM (#32579862)
This is not the question I am asking. You can have many people putting up their 32 ETH. Sure that's "decentralized".

But what if most of the stakers collude to double spend tokens? My understanding is that there is an additional layer of validators that have the power to force them to give up their stake as a penalty. Hence "proof of stake". And that there are very few validators. And it's really just the ethereum foundation.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by JohnJamesRambo on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:39AM (#32580048)
https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/consensus-mechanisms...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_stake

Start here.

“The threat of a 51% attack still exists on proof-of-stake as it does on proof-of-work, but it's even riskier for the attackers. A attacker would need 51% of the staked ETH (about $15,000,000,000 USD).”

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:57AM (#32580283)
I'm pretty much just asking the same question on every thread now. How does something get slashed? These articles say nothing about it. There are many docs saying all you need is 1 honest slasher node. Well, what happens if you have a dishonest slasher node?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by pa7x1 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @01:12PM (#32582540)
There is no separate notion of slasher, every staker is potentially a slasher. Slashing evidence can be included when you make a block. Doing so is rewarded, so you are economically incentivized to report slashable offenses if you find them. Blocks are validated and "attested" by everyone else. Failing to produce a block that everyone else accepts (edit: everyone else meaning at least 2/3 which is the quorum used) has at best the economic opportunity cost of what you could have earned and missed on and at worst (if someone else reports a slashable offense on your part that is accepted) a slashing penalty plus you get kicked out of the validators.

The rest is game theory. Dishonest validators win the game being dishonest if they are over 2/3 of the validator set. Then they can enforce their bad blocks into everyone else. Otherwise they get slashed or suffer other kind of penalties (inactivity leak if they manage to prevent the network from reaching consensus for a while).

So if you manage to bribe or buy 2/3 of the staked ETH then you can attack the network. There is of course a very significant economic cost to it. More interestingly at that point you are strongly aligned with the network itself as you represent a huge % of its value so you would be attacking yourself in a way. This is a notable difference with PoW where miners are not necessarily aligned in economic incentives with token-holders or users.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by programmarchy on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:19AM (#32580557)
The slashing can only occur if the validator can be proven to break certain rules e.g. double voting. The reports are evaluated by the network.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:22AM (#32580599)
> The reports are evaluated by the network.

The network which was just shown to be 51% malicious actors? And how is it evaluated? What if the slasher is dishonest? What if it sends trillions of fake requests?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by drdeca on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:10PM (#32581420)
Evaluated in the same way that “does this address have enough to send to this much to this other address” is evaluated? If it isn’t valid, then a block containing it isn’t valid, and this is a thing which any client can automatically check.

What happens if you try to send trillions of invalid transactions in any sensible chain?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by Zamicol on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:59PM (#32582324)
To whatever node your client is talking to, the invalid transactions should not be relayed. This is more of a DDOS situation than anything novelly technical. Like all computer systems, DDOS is a technical challenge that requires careful consideration.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:20PM (#32581619)
Normally there's a fee to try and send such things to prevent such behavior. I haven't seen anything suggesting thats the case for slasher reports.

The thing here is that the validators don't need to be honest when responding to a slasher report.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by drdeca on Friday August 26, 2022 @01:29AM (#32603674)
Do you mean by claiming that the block containing it is invalid when it is valid, or visa versa? Or something else?

Also, how can there be a fee to trying to send an invalid transaction? Such a fee would have to be sent as part of a transaction, yes? Isn’t it just that someone spamming the network gets dropped from the gossip protocol stuff?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by rekoil on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:18PM (#32581581)
51% is possible, but if it happens someone has wasted (at current valuations) ~$15B gaining a majority stake in a network they are torpedoing. It would be pretty dumb to do something like that to your own investment.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by vntok on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @04:35PM (#32585377)
So Elon Musk alone could do it on a whim, for the lolz?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by zaptrem on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:34AM (#32579992)
You’re mistaken, validators and stakers are one and the same. A 51% attack becomes unbelievably more expensive in a proof of stake system, especially because at the end of it all of your money is burned (whereas with POW you get to keep the GPUs unless they change the algo).
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by mypastself on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:36AM (#32580803)
What happens if the majority of infrastructure is provided by a small number of cloud computing services? An attacker with access to those services needn’t stake their own funds, and an “attack” might simply entail complying with local laws.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by lupire on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @04:57PM (#32585640)
The 51% is staked coins, not computers.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by mypastself on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:21AM (#32590246)
Doesn’t staking require active validator software on a computer with a great deal of uptime?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:47AM (#32580159)
stakers/validators vs. slashers
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by PretzelPirate on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:56AM (#32580274)
There is no defined role called a “slasher”. There are randomly-decided committees that are regularly updated as part of Ethereum PoS consensus that play different roles. Your validator could be in any one of those roles (or in a pending state) at any time.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:59AM (#32580307)
I'm almost certain that is incorrect. This is an optional, expensive seeming process.

e.g. https://docs.prylabs.network/docs/prysm-usage/slasher

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by PretzelPirate on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @01:21PM (#32582670)
You’re misunderstanding. Enabling the “slasher feature” on your validators is an option that any validator can do, not something that only “approved” validators can do.

There’s no one gate keeping your ability to become a slasher as long as you run a validator, and there’s no centralized entity deciding whether or not to slash someone’s stake.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by AlexandrB on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:09PM (#32581396)
> Running a slasher is not meant to be profitable. Slashing is meant to be rare and whistleblower rewards are purposefully low. Running a slasher is meant to be an altruistic action, and as stated, only a single, honest, properly functioning slasher needs to be active in the network to catch slashable offenses.

Hmmm. It seems dangerous to rely on altruistic enforcement in a network built around economic incentives. What if the altruistic slashers are simply paid money to turn off their nodes?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by exo762 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:26PM (#32581734)
How can you detect that people are NOT running slasher nodes?

This model assumes that 1/n is honest. This is almost as safe as it gets.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by AlexandrB on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:55PM (#32582267)
Depends how big "n" is. It's certainly not the number of ETH users. Running a slasher currently requires 1TB of SSD among other things[1]. I assume these requirements will grow with the popularity of ETH? If so, in a world where 100TB of SSD space is required the number of individuals who can run slashers drops rapidly. In the extreme case, aren't we looking at a small(er) number of well-funded organizations doing all the slashing?

[1] https://docs.prylabs.network/docs/prysm-usage/slasher

> However, home stakers are advised not to run a slasher on personal hardware, as it is a tremendously resource-hungry process. Slasher is very heavy on database access and disk usage, and the slasher.db will quickly grow to 1TB or more when running on mainnet.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by NavinF on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @05:03PM (#32585724)
A 1TB SSD is like $50. I put one in a small USB-C M.2 case and use it as a flash drive.

I’m pretty sure hardware costs will always be a rounding error compared to the $50k that “home stakers” need if they want to run their own validator.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by overtonwhy on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @03:30PM (#32584574)
What about a DDoS attack?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by bowsamic on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:34AM (#32579994)
What if most of the miners collude to double spend tokens? The problem is the same.

The difference is that proof of work automatically tends to centralisation due to its economy of scale: it's cheaper to add one more miner to your pool if you already have a big mining operation, but staking 1 eth is always staking 1 eth.

Both PoS and PoW have the problem where you can buy out the majority if you have the power to do so.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by howinteresting on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:15AM (#32580504)
If most of the miners collude like that than ETH will lose most of its value. The game theoretic aspect of PoS is an important part of its overall security.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by AlexandrB on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:14PM (#32581490)
This is only true if ETH remains a niche security and not a widespread currency. A large population won't drop a commonly used currency because of ideological concerns like miner collusion. Indeed, they'll have massive incentive to keep using it since their saving may be denominated in it.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:44AM (#32580128)
The problem is not the same. In proof of work, it just breaks and you can double spend. In this proof of stake setup, you can double spend, but then the ethereum foundation can punish you with its slashers.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by camjw on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:40AM (#32580078)
I don't understand this comment: "but staking 1eth is always staking 1eth".

If I have 100 GPUs and I buy one more can't I turn around and say "But buying one more GPU is just buying one more GPU"? Even if your point is that electricity bills are lower per additional GPU, surely humans discount the value of incremental money after some point so for those with lots of eth incremental eth isn't worth as much?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by bowsamic on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:40PM (#32581988)
It’s cheaper to run 1 more GPU when you are already running 100

It’s the same price to add 1 eth when you own 100 eth as when you own 1 eth

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by camjw on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:49PM (#32582161)
Kind of, but doesn't that assume a linear utility function for holding eth which I think seems unrealistic? Plus, there are costs associated with holding eth (cold storage etc) which seem fixed, so its cheaper to securely stake 1 additional eth when you're already staking 100eth than when you're not running any. Plus fixed costs of actually running a staking business (by analogy with a mining business).
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by bowsamic on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @03:17PM (#32584393)
Yes, the utility function is linear for PoS, and wildly non linear for PoW
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by bitxbitxbitcoin on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:39AM (#32580053)
What you are referring to is an old problem (arguably now solved) called “nothing at stake.” Short, bastardized answer is that something built into the consensus code called “slashing” keeps the validators/shakers from trying to stake two versions of a block.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:48AM (#32580170)
Who gets to run a slasher node and who gets to agree that its valid to slash a block?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by immibis on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:54AM (#32580245)
I don't know the specific rules for Ethereum, but in general PoS systems, anyone can slash. All you have to do is submit two different headers for the same block signed by the same validator. This proves the validator is cheating. The person who submits the proof may get to keep some of the validator's slashed money, which is a good incentive to run slashing nodes as this can amount to thousands of dollars per slash, and a good incentive not to double-validate as this can amount to thousands of dollars per time you are caught.

Perversely, since double-validation happens rarely, since it is expensive, the actual interface for slashing on e.g. BSC is not well-documented or user-friendly.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:14AM (#32580496)
> This proves the validator is cheating.

To whom? Who gets to decide to slash the funds?

I caught you cheating and can prove it. You don't give a shit and control 51% of the network. How do you get punished?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by rglullis on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:41PM (#32582011)
If you control 51% of the network (actually, with Ethereum PoS that number is 67%, as you need 2/3 of the validators to control consensus) and people know you are malicious, people will abandon the network and you will lose your investment because no one is interested in participating in a network controlled by a crook.

It's no different from what would happen in PoW. Can you please stop with the concern trolling?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:50PM (#32582182)
> If you control 51% of the network (actually, with Ethereum PoS that number is 67%, as you need 2/3 of the validators to control consensus) and people know you are malicious, people will abandon the network and you will lose your investment because no one is interested in participating in a network controlled by a crook.

If that 67% is also true of the slasher voting protocol, then that means you just need 33% of the network to avoid being slashed. Is that wrong?

> Can you please stop with the concern trolling?

Can you please stop trying to claim a moral high ground for no reason?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by rglullis on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:53PM (#32582225)
> just need 33% of the network to avoid being slashed. Is that wrong?

Yes, it is wrong.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @01:39PM (#32582935)
How is it wrong? If you need 67% consensus to approve a transaction, and slashing is a transaction, then you can prevent slashing with 33%. What's incorrect about that reasoning?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by rglullis on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @01:46PM (#32583052)
You won't be prevent slashing with 1/3, you will be merely delaying the block production each time is is proposed. Every time your 1/3 of the nodes attempt maliciously delays of production of a valid block, you will be slashed, and then you won't have 1/3 of the required funds at stake anymore.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @02:48PM (#32583985)
But... you can't be slashed unless a block gets processed that supports your slashing, correct?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by pa7x1 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @03:16PM (#32584372)
There is an inactivity leak that gets triggered if you prevent with over 1/3 of your votes from the network reaching consensus. Inactive validators start to leak ETH from their stake until they become less than 1/3 of the total stake and cannot prevent consensus again.

https://eth2book.info/altair/part2/incentives/inactivity

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @03:37PM (#32584672)
Does the network recognize a difference between being inactive/offline and actively voting no?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by pa7x1 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @05:54PM (#32586287)
There is no difference as far as I know. The network is supposed to finalize blocks that are almost 13 minutes old. If it's not able to do that because there is not sufficient quorum then it starts the inactivity leak phase and the penalties associated.

By the way, there is a bug bounty program. You can earn up to 1M USD per critical bug either in the protocol or its implementations.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by rglullis on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @03:15PM (#32584354)
Yes, but what is your point? You will be slashed no matter how hard you try to avoid it, unless you have 2/3 of the validators. The closer you are to 2/3, the faster you will be slashed. The system is self-estabilizing.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by bhaak on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:52AM (#32581070)
Social slashing. The honest parts of the community would organize and fork you away.

If you were following the current events on Ethereum, this question has just arisen in the last weeks when the US sanctioned the privacy oriented Tornado Cash contract.

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by tromp on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:55AM (#32581121)
You're right that for a slash to be publicly verifiable, the cheating evidence has to appear on-chain. So indeed there is the question of whether this evidence can be censored...
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by immibis on Thursday August 25, 2022 @08:18AM (#32592690)
If you control 51% of the network, the network is fucked.

If you control 20% of the network, the other 80% is following the rules and colluding against you. (Even another 20% that are double-validating themselves are incentivized to slash you)

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by ahahahahah on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @04:36PM (#32585401)
The people you are discussing this with clearly have no idea how the system actually works and are far out of their depth as far as considering the ways malicious actors interact with it.
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by addaon on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:16PM (#32581521)
In a general PoS system like you describe, what prevents a bistable situation from emerging? If there is any significant level of cheating, then running a slasher is profitable, which makes cheating very unprofitable, driving it to zero. But in the absence of cheating, what's the motivation to develop, maintain, test, and operate a slasher node? Isn't this prone to long periods of time with negligible cheating where all the slashers die out, followed by one big malicious attack that isn't caught promptly?
Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by immibis on Thursday August 25, 2022 @08:13AM (#32592644)
Possibly. You could even do this if the slashers were active. Just start up your attack instantaneously in between two blocks. Prior to the attack, nobody is cheating. After the attack, nobody is accepting evidence of cheating.

The whole cryptocurrency thing feels like a bit of a metastable equilibrium, but nobody's figured out anything better. Arguably even government-controlled fiat money is not much better - if >50% of the population doesn't like the rules, they will change them - we may be seeing the beginning of this right now, with a lot of people getting dissatisfied with half their income going to the black hole known as "landlords" who own the rights to take your income without producing any value whatsoever.

It might just lead to everyone abandoning your cryptocurrency and using a different one. Since you had to have >50% of the cryptocurrency in order to conduct the attack, you did lose a substantial amount of real-world value (billions or trillions of $) when everyone else stopped using your cryptocurrency.

It's pretty much analogous to if a majority of PoW miners decide to "go their own way" and make a chain where nobody else is invited. What happens then?

Re:Mainnet Merge Announcement by chippiewill on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:43AM (#32580120)
Coordinating and attempting an attack is seriously expensive in proof of stake if something goes wrong due to the slashing