News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by paxys on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:10PM (#32569787)
This is such a twisted framing of the issue. No one wants to "abolish property ownership". In fact housing proponents want the exact opposite – give everybody the opportunity to own a house rather than a select few large corporations and investors. Let me build my own house on a piece of land in or near the city, just like my grandparents did just a couple of generations ago. Remove years worth of excessive permits, reviews and other red tape. Remove restrictive zoning laws. Remove neighbors being able to veto my property because it would cast a shadow in their garden for 6 minutes a year.

And no, "too bad, go live in the middle of nowhere" isn't an acceptable answer.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by daenz on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:36PM (#32570241)
>And no, "too bad, go live in the middle of nowhere" isn't an acceptable answer.

As someone who grew up in a small town, do you understand how condescending this is? People have homes there, have families there, work hard and live decent lives. Just because they live at a pace you're not accustomed to, doesn't make living there some kind of hellish existence. Many would say the same about a filthy, overcrowded, crime-ridden city, of which I've lived in several across the US.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by noahtallen on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:49PM (#32570477)
I grew up in a very small town (under 5k pop) and did not find this condescending. There are very clear and obvious drawbacks to living there. It’s really not for everyone, evidenced by the fact that 80% of the US population lives in urban areas despite small towns being incredibly cheap.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by daenz on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:54PM (#32570546)
It's not condescending for someone to imply "I live somewhere important, you live somewhere unimportant" ?

Phrased another way, if someone came in for an interview and said "I'm from Laketon, Indiana", do you think it would be appropriate for the interviewer to say "Oh, you're from the middle of nowhere." ? I don't think that would be appropriate at all.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by paxys on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:41PM (#32570330)
You seem to want to get offended for no reason. If I forced everyone from your town to move to downtown New York would they be happy about it? Or could it be that different people have different lifestyle preferences?

I'm sure where you live is lovely, but I still don't want to move there myself.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by daenz on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:46PM (#32570404)
Just because you don't want to live there, doesn't make them "middle of nowhere" is my point. That's an extremely common elitist attitude that I see among tech people who look down their noses at people in rural communities.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by desperadovisa on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:20PM (#32569973)
Sorry but with all due respect, "too bad, go live in the middle of nowhere" is absolutely an acceptable answer. You're acting like you're entitled to live where ever you want, but the simple reality is that this is not possible.

You need to come to grips with that objective fact.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by Bukhmanizer on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @04:18PM (#32570887)
This is a pretty silly response. Are people entitled to live wherever they want? No. But the situation is very obviously not that black and white. We allow many things in society that people aren't entitled to, largely because we believe it will build a better society.

Am I entitled to own my investment properties? No.

Am I entitled to block neighbouring housing from being built? No.

But society allows both of these things because they ostensibly should result in a better society. Of course, they may not, and if they don't result in a better society, we should probably turn the dial back on these factors, but not get rid of them altogether.

So should anyone be entitled to live anywhere? No. But should a middle-class person be able to build a life in places where there are opportunities for job growth (and like it or not, right now, that's the big cities)? Probably, if we think that will result in a better society. So we may need to turns some policy dials to ensure this will happen.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by thepasswordis on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @04:19PM (#32570918)
Why are you not entitled to own your investment properties?
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by desperadovisa on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @08:12PM (#32573367)
> But should a middle-class person be able to build a life in places where there are opportunities for job growth (and like it or not, right now, that's the big cities)?

No. You are not entitled to access to specific jobs or a specific area.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by hahaxdxd123 on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @09:29PM (#32573956)
What kind of worldview is this? We should sacrifice social and economic mobility for people's Zucchini gardens?
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by desperadovisa on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @11:14PM (#32574579)
The world exists beyond San Francisco, you are not entitled to one specific city.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by furyofantares on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:32PM (#32570179)
There's a giant gap between "you're entitled to live wherever you want" and "too bad, go live in the middle of nowhere."

My read is that the person you're responding to is in the middle of that gap; and your response frames them as being on one extreme edge and then says an acceptable answer is to go to the other extreme edge.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by paxys on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:43PM (#32570362)
Why is it not possible? The only "objective fact" is that people in certain areas in this country have lobbied hard to make sure that no one else should be able to move in anywhere around them. These rules are all reversible.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by desperadovisa on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @11:15PM (#32574586)
It’s not possible because there is limited space. Someone loses, always. There is no version of reality where everyone who wants to live in San Francisco gets to.

You can disagree with how we divvy up SF but claiming you should get to live there is in direct contradiction with the idea that everyone should get to live there.

Someone, somehow, will get bumped. You’re just advocating for a system that would put you there at the expense of someone else.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by totony on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:38PM (#32570270)
You are acting like owning a home entitles you to dictate how other people get to live. It does not. Owning a home shouldn't allow you to dictate that someone cannot build a home near you. Unfortunately it does in some places, but this is fixable.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by surfpel on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:47PM (#32570425)
Thank you so much for this beautiful insight. I just purchased a 100 sqft plot of land in the Alaskan wilderness where I will hire 20 employees and start a manufacturing business... oh wait, that's ridiculous.

Your argument contributes nothing because it fails to address the real negative consequences of unaffordable housing. After a point (which we most certainly have crossed), it affects society in strongly negative ways.

I don't know what kind of society you want to live in, but I don't want any part of that.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by thepasswordis on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @02:36AM (#32575624)
What the heck is so wrong with the Midwest in your mind? Do you seriously think living in Ohio, a couple of hours from the Great Lakes, is equivalent to living on some remote parcel of land in rural Alaska?
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by surfpel on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:25AM (#32579872)
You’re missing the forest for the trees.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by desperadovisa on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @04:59PM (#32585664)
No, he isn't. Being able to live in any one particular city is not an inherent right of humanity.

It's perfectly reasonable to be priced out of some areas of the world, there is nothing at all wrong with that as a general concept.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by surfpel on Thursday August 25, 2022 @09:13AM (#32593268)
You’re also missing the forest for the trees because you’re not seeing the real issue. What you’re describing is really just the core concept of any market.

The issue is that we’re seriously restricting growth and innovation in favor of using housing as a financial investment. Yes, it’s necessary to have some degree of inequality and nobody is entitled to to live in any exact spot, but it’s gotten out of hand at this point, it’s hurting our societies, and it’s unsustainable.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by jeffbee on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:33PM (#32570191)
Clearly it is ethically problematic for the people of San Francisco to squirt out babies and then 18 years later tell them to go fuck off, go live in Gary, Indiana.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by Kon-Peki on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @04:44PM (#32571218)
Don't give anyone any ideas or they might discover that they can buy a house like this [1] that is walking distance to the commuter train, walking distance to the beach, and walking distance to the trails in a National Park [2] [3] [4]

[1] https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8725-Maple-Ave-Gary-IN-46...

[2] https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6199213,-87.2571163,16z

[3] https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6199718,-87.2697873,16z

[4] https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6218829,-87.2348586,16z

[dead]
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by turtlebits on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:51PM (#32570499)
No one is forcing you to live in the city you do now. I am probably in a similar income range yet live a <3 miles from a major city that is known for high housing market.

People have such high expectations of housing, they are pricing themselves out. I do live in a 60+ year old, 1400 sf house, but that doesn't bother me.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by desperadovisa on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @05:06PM (#32571515)
I empathize for you, I do, but nothing you've said here means you deserve to live in San Francisco and a) not somewhere else or b) more than anyone else.

You do not deserve to live in San Francisco. Sorry.

What's probably a bit more toxic about your attitude is the implied belief that you deserve "better" than everywhere else in the US, that San Francisco is "yours* and not anyone else's.

And not for nothing, but I do have children (two) and am entirely capable of empathizing with others.

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by thepasswordis on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:22PM (#32570017)
>just let me build a house where somebody else already owns the property where I want to build that house.

How does that work out in your mind without abolishing the concept of property ownership? What happens when somebody wants to build their house where you already have yours?

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by paxys on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:27PM (#32570091)
I'm not talking about building in someone's front yard. If you sell me a piece of land that you own, and it is now legally mine, should I be able to build a house on it? That itself is practically impossible to do in 99% of cases in most major cities in the US. A city like San Francisco approves like 7-10 shovel-ready housing projects a year, and fewer actually get completed.
Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by mebreuer on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:54PM (#32570556)
I agree that in SF it has gotten out of hand. But the concept that communities can establish rules for what you can build in those communities seems acceptable?

If I moved to a a suburb because I wanted a smaller scale, and my neighbor wanted to build an apartment building next door, I'd probably push back against that. It feels like what is happening in SF is some extension of that.. projects getting caught up in community board reviews that happen slowly and unpredictably, and are staffed by old-timer SF residents who want to keep the city small. Frustrating for sure, but hard to fault them for that, if that's why they moved there pre-tech boom?

I personally live in NYC and appreciate that you can build whatever you want here!

Re:Investors bought a quarter of US homes sold last year by thepasswordis on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:56PM (#32570587)
Link me to an example of an empty lot in San Francisco that you are trying to build a single family home on and can’t, please.