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Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by blahyawnblah on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:25PM (#32569028)
How can you make housing not an investment? Require set constant purchase and sale prices on land and houses?

Lots of people buy a starter house with the intention of selling for more when they, for example, start having kids and need a bigger house.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by djohnston on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:27PM (#32569064)
How about.. increasing the property tax rate exponentially with the number of properties held. Few people are arguing that a mom-pop rental business needs to be shut down. These conglomerates with > 10,000 properties are the serious problem, even the data from the article points this out clearly.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by acomjean on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:44PM (#32569333)
Where I live, they lop off a large value for tax purposes if you live in your property:

"shifts the tax burden within the residential class from owners of moderately valued residential properties to the owners of vacation homes, higher valued homes and residential properties not occupied by the owner, including apartments and vacant lands."

https://www.mass.gov/doc/living-with-the-residential-exempti...

It hasn't seemed to help, but maybe it has a little.....

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by jimbob45 on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:34PM (#32569149)
I really like your idea but I don't know how you'd reconcile it with organizations simply forming a shell over many smaller companies with a few properties each.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by Jochim on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:39PM (#32569245)
I mean the simplest solution would be to tax the holding company as well.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by djohnston on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:36PM (#32569193)
FTC, IRS, and the whoop whoop sound of da police
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by beebmam on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:36PM (#32569202)
Or just increase property tax across the board. An increase in property tax will drive housing prices downwards.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by djohnston on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:37PM (#32569214)
I don't want it to be harder for someone to buy their first house (I also want to buy my first house haha). I want it to be harder for some thing to buy it's 10,001st house.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by mywittyname on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:52PM (#32569468)
Not sure this is feasible. A) People can hide how many houses they "own" rather easily. B) People with 10,000 houses have 10,000 times the economic incentive to run for office and/or press elected officials to make things easier on them.

The best approach is to press for over-development of housing. It doesn't matter if someone owns 1 house, or 1000 houses, so long as there is more than enough homes for everyone.

Idea: have a property tax line item that's based on the ratio of population / housing units. The higher that ratio, the higher the tax. The tax revenue is used to cover the costs of constructing more housing units, which lowers the tax.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by pwinnski on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:05PM (#32569699)
Homestead exemptions can keep property taxes low on one house per person, allowing property taxes on investment properties to skyrocket without any effect on first-time buyers, or really any homeowners. In theory.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by al_mandi on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:47PM (#32569391)
So you're basically now paying rent to the government.

Want to really address the problem (and many other problem with today's economic system)? Prohibit interest bearing loans.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by analognoise on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @11:35PM (#32574706)
How do you handle the risk of defaults? If you never charged interest wouldn't anyone who offered loans just go out of business?

I do think credit scores are a scam (as are overdraft fees) and that rates should be reasonable, but no interest would make nobody lend money.

I like having a car loan - I was able to buy a car with current safety features. Without it I'd have to buy some unsafe (or unreliable) clunker in cash.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by al_mandi on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @12:46AM (#32575110)
By prohibiting interest bearing loans, loans become relegated to purely an act of charity, and as you point out, there will no longer be businesses that are built only or mostly to lend money and profit off of usury. And that's a good thing.

There's no reason why the car manufacturers won't be able to offer 0% interest on moderate term loans (a few years long). They already do today when they want to sell cars. This will drive prices down actually.

You can also have longer term leases without interest, effectively paying for depreciation and the company can profit from leasing the car.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by hemloc_io on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:56PM (#32569545)
I want to agree, but at the end of the day the corps doing this are taking crappy properties and renovating them. They want to fix it up and resell it or charge higher rents than the current owners. That's how they make their profits.

Usually they have a maintenance staff that takes care of the property as well or add additional services.

Mom and pop landlords don't do any of that usually, and just hand someone a key w/ a call to the occasional contractor to fix something instead of an actual company. Most need a warm body to pay off their mortgage so they can sell it in the future and pocket the cash.

We need to fix the supply side, if the corp takes the properties that are broken down and fixes them that's a good thing. The problem comes when people who are around there now cannot afford the new rents they either become homeless or leave.

How far they have to leave depends on the supply of housing in the surrounding area, which b/c of the shortage is pretty low. With a huge supply of housing, it's possible to move next door or down the street and not much changes.

If we build more rents will go down, regardless of who the owners are. Prices to buy homes too for normal people.

Getting people to build more is the problem, high construction costs, zoning/permiting, local opposition etc.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by MrRiddle on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:34PM (#32570208)
> but at the end of the day the corps doing this are taking crappy properties and renovating them. They want to fix it up and resell it or charge higher rents than the current owners.

Could it be the reason that those properties are too expensive for a regular Joe to fix up because of investors in the first place.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by Sohcahtoa82 on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:32PM (#32569123)
Buying a house to live in while you save for something bigger is different from buying property for the sole purpose of renting it out.

The latter are financial vampires, sucking money from lower classes, pushing housing prices higher, locking more people out of ownership.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by settrans on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:48PM (#32570451)
Are the developers of apartment buildings financial vampires too? The people who literally are adding supply to the market (and therefore lowering prices, because supply and demand)?
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by sideshowb on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:29PM (#32569083)
A high level of land value tax.

If the family home you aspire to wasn't also climbing in price, you wouldn't need to sell your starter home at a profit.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by helen___keller on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:40PM (#32569273)
> Lots of people buy a starter house with the intention of selling for more when they, for example, start having kids and need a bigger house.

This is the problem though. Capital gains for the seller represents inflation on an equivalent lifestyle for the next buyer.

First time buyer programs, lower mortgage rates, etc, are all just smokescreens to try and grow the pyramid one more level before it becomes evidently unsustainable. Exponential growth is too powerful: if housing is a good investment for long enough, it becomes unaffordable, period.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by tejohnso on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:39PM (#32569242)
> How can you make housing not an investment?

I think if it's an investment, that's fine. The problem is when housing is allowed to become a speculative investment, and the investment activity on housing begins to seriously threaten the actual housing activity. So for example you could do one or more of the following:

- Adjust mortgage rates on homes owned but not lived in (eg: triple them)

- Completely ban owning more than one home

- Implement a sliding tax on rental income (the more units you collect on, the higher the tax you pay)

- Bring back (or implement) rent controls and have them geared to cost of living

Basically anything that makes it less feasible to profit off of people who just want a safe place to live.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by giaour on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:47PM (#32569394)
> The problem is when housing is allowed to become a speculative investment

I don’t think the distinction you’re drawing makes sense; there are plenty of ways to speculate in an otherwise healthy housing market (e.g. move to a gentrifying neighborhood in the hopes of moving again in a few years when your property is worth more).

It seems like the common theme for the ills you identify is housing being un- or under-utilized while the owner is expecting or reaping the rewards of capital appreciation. More straightforward policy responses to that could include imposing a surtax on unoccupied property or taxing imputed rent regardless of occupancy.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by tejohnso on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:07PM (#32569734)
> move to a gentrifying neighborhood in the hopes of moving again in a few years when your property is worth more

I didn't leave it just as speculation being the problem. You ignored the second part where I said "and the investment activity on housing begins to seriously threaten the actual housing activity". The speculative investment features intensify the use of homes for purposes other than housing. In your example, the purchaser is using it for both speculation and housing. Not so bad. But someone who owns a home, then leverages the equity to buy another that they don't intend to live in but rent out, then does that again 2 or 3 times, now we have a problem where this person is just massively leveraging and speculating, supported by the government and the banks, "the system" if you will. And then higher rents are in the best interest of these more affluent people. Rather, "the system" could disincentivize this kind of activity.

> ills you identify is housing being un- or under-utilized...imposing a surtax on unoccupied property

Not really something I was talking about, no...but that problem would be addressed by the first two suggestions I offered. Of course if for some reason it was still a problem, or you didn't want to be as heavy handed, you could go ahead and impose a surtax like you said.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by hemloc_io on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:45PM (#32569343)
I agree that housing shouldn't be a speculative investment, but cutting demand for building housing will decrease the amount of housing.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11119259/Hundreds-q...

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by tejohnso on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:13PM (#32569834)
From your linked article:

" The unprecedented number of refugees arriving in Ireland has put pressure on the country's housing crisis, despite generous offers to host Ukrainian families. " I'm not sure how that results in cutting demand for building housing. The article is basically saying there's a crisis with few reasons offered.

How / why / what would be cutting demand for building housing? Demand is the last thing I'd be worried about. People need a place to live, and they need the housing to live in, so there's always going to be demand for building it.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by dzhiurgis on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @01:52AM (#32575388)
Forbid buying existing stock for rental/speculation. Only build new if you are leveraged to the brim.

Build social housing and maintain it at a level that far exceed market price.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by dinosaurdynasty on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:33PM (#32569144)
Build more housing (remove NIMBY-style policies that lead to less housing being built).
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by hemloc_io on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:41PM (#32569278)
Either deregulate to allow for developers to build more, or have the govt step in and build more. (Maybe even both)

Nothing should stop housing from being an investment in the same way that any good effected by supply and demand is, but there's a difference with the price of housing going up at at slightly over the rate of inflation and what we've seen the last couple years across the entire market. (Or even the decade before that in the bay area.) 10-20% a year rises in the COL is insane, and encourages rent seeking by current housing owners to the detriment of everyone else.

Public policy should favor the former, and punish the later.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by lumost on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:28PM (#32569069)
One solution is to force depreciating by selling “leases” to land rather than land.

Cities could roll out such a policy directly when making unused land available or other activities.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by _fat_santa on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:31PM (#32569113)
Hawaii does that and it wrecks the housing market, because it creates two tiers of housing: leased land and owned land housing. All you will end up with is all the expensive property is going to be on "purchased land" and all the cheap properties will be on leased land.

Hawaii has a good reason for doing this because land is scarce and there is no place to go. Basically anywhere else this would be idotic IMO.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by colinmhayes on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:50PM (#32569436)
All land should be leased from the government. That's what a land value tax is and there are many, many reasons it works much better than our current land system.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by settrans on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:53PM (#32570534)
In effect it already is: we lack allodial title in the United States anyhow, and all land is subject to taking by eminent domain and taxation by local governments.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by novantadue on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:38PM (#32569238)
single family housing is not an investment in japan, they tear down and rebuild. https://robbreport.com/shelter/home-design/japanese-homes-ar...
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by mytailorisrich on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @03:12PM (#32569811)
There is no problem with property being an investment.

Prices are constrained by people's incomes and over the 20th century incomes have grown faster than inflation (people have got richer). This leaves space for positive returns without necessarily hurting affordability.

Now, in many places construction has slowed a lot and capital is cheap, which is really what has caused prices to skyrocket.

Eventually, incomes will still constrain the market, though, especially in lettings.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by onionisafruit on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:36PM (#32569199)
The communist answer is to not allow anybody to purchase real estate.
Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by shkkmo on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:31PM (#32569116)
High property taxes based on land value. This makes the land itself a liability that is offset only by the owners to extract value from the property by improving and using it.

This property is still an investment via improving the property to enhance income potential, but less of a speculative bet on the overall state of the market.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by shagie on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @02:36PM (#32569205)
What does that do for an existing single family house that someone inherited / moved into as their parents moved out? It wasn't bought as an investment - its a place to live.

A high property tax based on land value would suggest that all the places people need to live would need to be generating income, have a high income for the family, or they'd need to move into a place where that land value is distributed across a wider base of households.

Re:Why is rent skyrocketing? by shkkmo on Tuesday August 23, 2022 @05:38PM (#32571903)
If someone inherits a single family house and don't view the property as providing enough value as a residence or rental to cover the land taxes, then they should sell the property or redevelop it at a higher density that better matches the value of the the land.

Of course land should be producing economic value. If it doesn't or thr value produced doesn't match the land's value, then something is wrong.