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Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by KerrAvon on Sunday August 21, 2022 @11:29AM (#32541119)
What war? This is about user privacy. Apple implemented replacement APIs allowing for tracking that doesn’t impinge user privacy. Facebook is just mad that they can’t microtarget you on iOS anymore.
Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by Tijdreiziger on Sunday August 21, 2022 @11:38AM (#32541223)
Meanwhile, Apple collects the same types of user data as Google [1], and wants to grow its advertising business [2].

[1] https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-08-14/apple-...

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by dwaite on Sunday August 21, 2022 @12:35PM (#32541806)
First party data collection and use is not the same as third-party tracking.

I have relationships with Apple and Google. The line around what data usage is appropriate with those companies somewhat nebulous, and also somewhat a personal decision.

For instance - the paper you site shows that Apple and Google send location data from devices to the server. Those devices also both ship with functionality for things like mapping and local weather. So for iOS, you have to approve sharing location data (even for the built-in weather app and maps app) on an app-by-app basis. Android has gotten better about this over the years, but I don't know current state.

Facebook is (was) correlating detailed profiles of users who had no relationship with Facebook, through interactions with third parties that were not part of Facebook, and without disclosure. That is a much simpler line to draw.

Even then, Apple gave the user choice - and the users almost universally chose not to give that capability.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by lern_too_spel on Sunday August 21, 2022 @01:17PM (#32542252)
> Even then, Apple gave the user choice

Interestingly, Apple puts tracking for its own apps behind another setting that ignores the global setting.

Unlike its competitors, Apple does not give users a choice about whether to send location data to Apple (if you want to see your location at all) or about whether to send app install and search information to Apple. Apple's devices are worse on privacy on every axis when you consider whether they give users a choice.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by threeseed on Sunday August 21, 2022 @05:05PM (#32544432)
a) Apple does give a choice about whether to send location data. It's in System Services within the Privacy section and consists of 18 checkboxes. Do you have evidence that with all of these disabled they are still capturing location data ?

b) How would the App Store even work at all if they didn't store your purchases.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by lern_too_spel on Sunday August 21, 2022 @05:31PM (#32544670)
a) Apple does not give you a choice about whether to send your location data to Apple. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24585353

b) Most of the apps I use aren't purchased. Why should Apple know which apps they are? Apple's privacy-respecting (in actuality instead of in marketing) competitors don't require this.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by threeseed on Sunday August 21, 2022 @07:34PM (#32545592)
a) We are in 2022. A lot can and has changed in the last 2 years especially with regards to privacy. Again do you have evidence that location data is being sent to Apple when all the options have been disabled.

b) I’m not sure if developer installs are being tracked by Apple. Are they ?

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by lern_too_spel on Sunday August 21, 2022 @08:03PM (#32545776)
a) The apple.com webpage linked in that HN comment moved to https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/location-service..., which contains every quoted section essentially verbatim.

b) Developer installs on iOS are even worse for privacy than App Store installs, requiring an up-to-date payment method to associate with your device instead of just an email address or phone number.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by ProAm on Sunday August 21, 2022 @09:32PM (#32546312)
> First party data collection and use is not the same as third-party tracking.

I can't disagree with this more. User privacy is user privacy.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by croes on Sunday August 21, 2022 @11:49AM (#32541331)
It's about users' money. Apple's take on privacy is the same as FB's. If user data stays at Apple/FB it's private.

But that's not privacy at all. Any additional confidant besides the sender and the recipient is a breach of privacy.

You wouldn't let it count as respecting privacy either if the post office read all your letters and stored the texts.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by dwaite on Sunday August 21, 2022 @12:48PM (#32541960)
Different tiers.

Facebook is impacted by third-party tracking - such capturing information and generating profiles for people, even those without Facebook accounts. They would do this via Facebook javascript and Facebook native app SDKs.

Apple's solution was App Tracking Transparency - a user consent on whether to provide a handy identifier to use for correlation across apps, and App Store rules which ban tracking using other mechanisms (such as IP address correlation).

For apps outside the store (e.g. web apps), the privacy proxy stuff and third-party state isolation/blocking are used to greatly reduce such correlation.

For first-party data collection, storage and sharing, there are consents for sharing information from the device (location, contacts, health information, and so on). There is also a privacy label (which App Store rules require to be accurate) on what data collected by an app used, for what purpose, and whether that use is linked to you or anonymized.

So a post office app that read the letters and stored the text would say that 'user content' was captured, and whether or not it was 'linked to you'.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by justapassenger on Sunday August 21, 2022 @04:19PM (#32543989)
How many people do you think make an informed consent decision? 0.001% is my guess.

Apple is playing dirty. Less dirty than Facebook, but that’s not a high bar.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by dwaite on Sunday August 21, 2022 @11:58PM (#32547174)
62% of users are opting out of third-party tracking, according to https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/13/apples-privacy-changes-show-....

That would be nearly 40% of users who are not hitting the 'Allow' button on the consent pop-over.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by croes on Sunday August 21, 2022 @01:10PM (#32542188)
It's not about Apps it's about privacy, about the data that Apple gets and stores.

It's not privacy if only Apple has it, it's privacy if even Apple hasn't it

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by ajross on Sunday August 21, 2022 @08:21PM (#32545867)
> Apple's solution was App Tracking Transparency

It remains an open question whether Apple itself is subject to those rules, though. If a user, via a third party app, takes an action Apple can identify, is Apple allowed to use that information to sell you ads? As of right now, it seems that they're leaning to "yes".

They haven't crossed any rivers yet, but the signs are there and we should all be worried.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by dwaite on Monday August 22, 2022 @12:12AM (#32547261)
> If a user, via a third party app, takes an action Apple can identify, is Apple allowed to use that information to sell you ads? As of right now, it seems that they're leaning to "yes".

The solution which will likely emerge is one of local profiling, both for native applications and at the web platform level. Advertisers and agencies will not gather user profile information, even in aggregate. Instead the profile will be something managed (or reset, or disabled) on-device/in-browser, and used to drive ad selection locally.

For example, the App Store interface might give you a set of recommendations for apps when launched, perhaps based on location information. This can be driven by downloads in your area, as well as purchased advertisements. But there's no reason that exact location needs to be shared at all - a set of coarser regional files containing the needed data can be grabbed, and the decision of what to display can be made locally.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by ajross on Monday August 22, 2022 @12:15AM (#32547274)
> The solution which will likely emerge is one of local profiling

That sounds nice indeed, but it would be a lot nicer if we got a statement to that effect from Apple Computer instead of dwaite on HN.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by tmpz22 on Sunday August 21, 2022 @11:32AM (#32541148)
Yeah Apple’s Board of Executives put all profit motive aside and are sacrificing for our privacy.
Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by cloudking on Sunday August 21, 2022 @11:35AM (#32541175)
Right.. Apple isn't playing 4D chess to challenge Facebook's Ad business. https://www.axios.com/2022/08/21/apple-advertising-privacy-t...
Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by JKCalhoun on Sunday August 21, 2022 @12:45PM (#32541928)
I don't see those as mutually exclusive. Apple seems to believe that a company that values a user's privacy can make a profit from that stance.
Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by zip1234 on Sunday August 21, 2022 @07:55PM (#32545726)
Apple nerfed everyone else's ads to grow their own ad business. Apple's version of privacy is that if Apple has the data it is private, but if anyone else does it is not private. Just go read Apple's TOS. They collect browsing history, location data, etc. For everyone else they just put it behind a setting. Not for their own data collection though.
Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by robch on Sunday August 21, 2022 @02:26PM (#32542970)
> I don't see those as mutually exclusive. Apple seems to believe that a company that values a user's privacy can make a profit from that stance.

The reason Apple doesn't want targeted third party ads is so that they are the only ones that can sell targeted ads to their users. Their platform, their rules. For now at least.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by threeseed on Sunday August 21, 2022 @04:50PM (#32544271)
Apple was never going to add Google or Facebook ads into the App Store or News+.

And iOS/OSX users will still see targeted ads whenever they open their browser or third party apps.

The apps just need to either (a) ask the user for permission to track or (b) authenticate them.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by smoldesu on Sunday August 21, 2022 @11:50AM (#32541343)
And how do you feel about the data that Apple collects and stores? Both companies are operated by scumbags who don't give a rat's ass about your personal privacy, it's a 'battle' in the sense that neither company can agree who should profit off of advertising.
Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by JKCalhoun on Sunday August 21, 2022 @12:46PM (#32541939)
Apple, because of their proclaimed fealty to user privacy clearly have the most to lose if they should violate that bond.
Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by Apocryphon on Sunday August 21, 2022 @10:43PM (#32546722)
Any company’s “proclaimed fealty” is just marketing copy!
Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by smoldesu on Sunday August 21, 2022 @06:11PM (#32544983)
They already have. Apple complies with hundreds of thousands of federal data requests every year, they send messages back to HQ every time you launch an app, they help China hunt down religious minorities, they give the FBI access to iCloud data without a warrant, they collect a list of unique identifiers for every photo on your phone, and at the end of the day you're still vulnerable to exploits like Pegasus and RCE through iMessage image decoders.

If you think Apple hasn't violated that promise, you must have an extremely selective definition of privacy.

Re:Secret talks that could have prevented the Apple vs. Face... by gloryjulio on Monday August 22, 2022 @02:43AM (#32548105)
> Apple implemented replacement APIs allowing for tracking that doesn’t impinge user privacy.

Just like android?