News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by Barrin92 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:26PM (#32406888)
God I wish people would stop using the term "artificial" when they mean "metaphorical". An artificial organ is artificial if you can put it in the place where the original thing used to be, and it works. That's to say, it's equivalent in function.

These 'synapses' aren't actually synapses and they don't emulate even a fraction of the processes you find in their biological namesakes.

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by mdp2021 on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @04:13AM (#32409116)
> they don't emulate even a fraction of the processes you find in their biological namesakes

That is correct. But they are not supposed to: natural nervous systems are just an inspiration. That perspective is only valid in _nervous systems emulations_ - which is just a subset of what we do.

> using the term

'Artificial', in use, stands for "non natural, non spontaneous"; it means "done with an aim" (cpr. Sanskirt arth, artha, arthin, arya; Greek aretē, àristos). Those items are. They are called metaphorically - but evidently so - 'synapses', which means "joinings, interfastenings" (see in engineering 'haptic', "touching"), because they join the elements of a "neural network", where 'neuron' remains "a string" - a "connection significant of a relation".

So: at some point some thought: "What if we obtain something through joining similar elements in a network... Yes, similarly to the other one". It fits, because the model is this model, a model of the natural thing. You have natural neural networks, their model ("just a network"), and such model (of the natural thing) is used as a model (for designing further things).

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by kalium-xyz on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @04:17AM (#32409139)
In the article they proceed to compare the “artificial” size and performance to the “natural”. I think OP had more issues with that
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by croes on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @01:10AM (#32408025)
Tell that IKEA

https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/cat/artificial-plants-flowers-204...

Artificial just means made by humans and at some part are a copy of the original, not a 100% replacement

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by seydor on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @01:51AM (#32408193)
I have some of those and they have, in fact, replaced the originals
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by TazeTSchnitzel on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @02:59AM (#32408588)
Wow, the brand name is FEJKA: “to fake”…
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by tnzk on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @01:57AM (#32408228)
IKEA doesn't claim them to be 10x live longer than real thing.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by croes on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @02:02AM (#32408254)
I bet, they "live" even longer
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by sjtgraham on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:37PM (#32407310)
Artificial just means made by humans.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by hebrox on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @01:49AM (#32408183)
I think we agree on that it’s made by humans. The discussion is about what is being made. Just because a tennis ball is round, we don’t call it an artificial sun.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by mdp2021 on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @04:28AM (#32409220)
> by humans

Not necessarily, though primarily. The core point is in "crafting with an aim".

It is interesting that the first recognized use of the term is for "artificial day", meaning "dawn to dusk", which is the period in the "natural day" (here the term already starts to suggest an opposition - "artificial vs natural") in which you can "purposefully craft" (light allows).

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by btilly on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:06PM (#32407462)
The point is that these are inspired by human synapses, but nowhere near equivalent to them. They do something much simpler.

Comparing them with human synapses is like comparing cellphones to servers. Not exactly apples to apples.

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by WhitneyLand on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:09PM (#32407486)
As the core part of some software I could make a game engine.

Or I could do the same thing but name it an “artificial heart”, noting that it’s 10,000 times faster than a human heart.

That makes sense because artificial just means made by humans?

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by myownpetard on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:37PM (#32407620)
It's more like calling an articulated robot with a manipulator a 'robotic arm', despite being infinitely simpler than a human arm and with much more limited functionality.

I agree that the speed comparison seems like a very misguided metric though.

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by tiagod on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @01:57AM (#32408222)
Well, it's a robot in the shape of an arm. A robotic dog doesn't have to look or behave much like a dog to earn its name.

You wouldn't call them artificial dogs nor artificial arms (unless they were being used as a prosthetic I guess, but then it's just a robotic prostethic arm)

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by tum92 on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @12:20AM (#32407822)
I had the same initial reaction, but after digging in a little I don’t think “artificial” is the worst description in the world here. I do think the innovation here is much more like an artificial neuron than an artificial synapse though. Fair warning, I’m no neuroscientist and I basically don’t know what neural networks are, but here’s what I’ve gathered.

neuron1 -> neuron2

Neuron1 receives an input signal across a synapse, “processes” that signal, and then either does or does not pass along an output signal to neuron2. I’m sure this is an incredibly deep field of research with a lot of nuance, but I think it remains a reasonable approximation to say that neurons “fire” or not in a binary manner. A lot of the magic takes place within the neuron itself, where unimaginably complex biochemistry dictates how likely a neuron is to fire in response to an input signal. As far as I understand it, this is analogous to the application of a weight to an input in a neural network.

A decent example along these lines is how opiates influence breathing. Neurons exist at a resting negative electrical state, which can be shifted to a sufficiently positive state in response to an input that the signal propagates down the neuron resulting in the passing on of that signal to the next neuron. Opiates drive that resting negative electrical state to be even more negative, and so in response to a normal “we’re running low on oxygen here!” input, a neuron will fail to become sufficiently positive to pass that signal along the chain. In NN parlance, it’s weight has been changed.

This piece describes a memristor that replicates this weighting of inputs to produce outputs through a material that stores these weights in a material that can be adjusted electrically rather than through biochemistry. There was actually a paper[0](released just two days ago!) that uses memristors to meaningfully create an artificial neuron with biochemical synapses. Of course, there’s a lot of extra machinery involved to actually be biologically useful, but nonetheless this tech can be used as a very simplified drop-in. Of course, as you say it’s like step one in a 10 billion step process, but I don’t think it’s totally dishonest to call it an “artificial” neuron, or at least a component of one.

Of course, bragging about how fast and small it is compared to a neuron and synapse is a bit like an elementary school teacher setting up a cool grow-lamp garden to teach kids about sunlight and photosynthesis and then bragging about how they produced an ultra-minutare sun that’s so efficient it runs off an outlet :)

[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-022-00803-0

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by tsimionescu on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @01:43AM (#32408150)
There are at least two problems with this model.

For one, some neurons, when activated, don't just send a signal to specific other neurons, but instead release a chemical in an area, that affects the activation chances of other nearby neurons. I believe there are also other modes of activation, and other consequences of neuron activation, that make the brain far more complex. It should be remembered that the brain can also activate other glands in the body, which in turn change how the brain works - e.g. when releasing adrenaline, testosterone, oxytocin etc.

For another, as far as we know right now, each neuron itself is deciding whether to fire or not based on much more sophisticated logic than "sum(input*weight) > threshold". In fact, it seems that computation happens quite a bit in individual neurons, not only at the NN level. At the very least, the neuron activation function is not fixed, like in an ANN after training, it changes constantly for various reasons.

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by tum92 on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @02:39AM (#32408458)
Oh the number of ways this model doesn’t match reality couldn’t even be counted. I suppose my standard for achieving an “artificial something” in biology is if accurately reflects reality well enough to learn from, and I only meant to imply that this might.

I will say that my mental model does hinge on the idea that the action of a single neuron at a single point in time in a single context can actually be equated to "sum(input*weight) > threshold". Doing the actual computation to figure out a principled measure of weight (and input, context, and maybe even time for that matter) is way outside our ability, but it seems like something that could be approximated in a simple experimental model!

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by soco on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @06:15AM (#32409797)
"if accurately reflects reality well enough to learn from" - but are we learning real stuff from that, or only implications from the fake/artificial thing? I mean for sure we can see that as a brainstorming, exciting by itself, but does that get us closer to understanding the real thing, or it's at the maximum a Plato's cave exercise in rationality?
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by cma on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @03:38AM (#32408839)
> don't emulate even a fraction of the processes you find in their biological namesakes.

It isn't expected that e.g. an artificial heart would emulate all processes of the heart. It just needs to cover the function of the heart to some degree, sometimes (usually?) they don't even have a beat.

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by disruptiveink on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @05:17AM (#32409486)
What do you mean?

> made by people, often as a copy of something natural

There is absolutely no requirement for the "copy" to be functional. See: artificial flowers. Things like "artificial hearts" are the exception and not the norm.

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by noduerme on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @05:36AM (#32409566)
I was thinking about this nit for awhile. Artificial flowers do fulfill one purpose of flowers, i.e. decoration. And the parent is right that most other "artificial" things serve to fill in for some original purpose of the natural thing. But the real point is they don't have to fill all the purposes, or even most of them. An artificial eye could be made of glass or it could be a camera a thousand miles away... in the first case, it's just there in someone's head for show, fulfilling the aesthetic purpose of an eye. In the second case it's there for the purpose of seeing something and fills no aesthetic need at all. So an artificial neuron could fill any one of many functions... it could even just be a big plastic model of a neuron in a doctor's office.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by KineticLensman on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @08:24AM (#32410742)
Artificial hearts pump blood similarly to how submarines swim: typically with some form of rotor.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by martopix on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @03:44AM (#32408886)
Artificial neural networks have been called like that since the 1940s. So that's just how they're called. I assure you that people in the field know the difference very well.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by xor99 on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @09:40AM (#32411737)
Yes, "synthetic analogy" or something similar would be more appropriate. I guess artificial synapse always means an approximation (e.g. if its similar it's only in some partial way: the device uses ionic transport etc). I think artificial synapse has become the nomenclature in the academic literature and they are just going along with that. The article makes a bit of a mess of it though.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by rbanffy on Thursday August 11, 2022 @09:19AM (#32425153)
> they don't emulate even a fraction of the processes you find in their biological namesakes

As long as they provide the same resulting behavior, it doesn't matter the processes are the same. If the processes were the same, it'd be an electrochemical process and would be 10K times slower.

Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by noduerme on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @05:29AM (#32409539)
In the spirit of the thing, you have to admit that "artificial intelligence" is already a widely accepted description of a variety of algorithms which will never literally replace human brains in human skulls... so by extension, any hardware built to run those algorithms could be described as an artificial brain full of artificial neurons, if only to differentiate it from an actual brain running artificial intelligence.
Re:Artificial synapses 10k times faster than real thing by philipov on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @08:33AM (#32410845)
Yes, my first thought on reading the title was "Hey, can I get those to replace my normal synapses? kappa"