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Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by mrtksn on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:52PM (#32378747)
He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison.

That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "Japanese prisons and legal system are not good" editorials were coordinated.

IMHO, if Japanese system is that bad, People should stop going to Japan or take action to fix it for everyone instead of normalising the getting of scott-free for the elite.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by throwoutway on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:02PM (#32378856)
> it's not wrong to escape from prison.

Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong.

You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unreasonable

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by snovv_crash on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:14PM (#32378969)
I think the argument here is that being in prison is a bad experience and wanting to escape is normal, natural human behaviour. As such, the onus is not on the prisoner to stay inside, but on the guards to keep them there. Escaping is, as such, not a crime in itself.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by SiempreViernes on Sunday August 07, 2022 @04:21PM (#32379522)
Evading a punishment is pretty universally seen as a crime, not sure why you'd think otherwise.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by fudgefactorfive on Sunday August 07, 2022 @06:14PM (#32380450)
I can think of at least one nation that disagrees: Germany.

To quote Wikipedia "In some other places like Germany and a number of other countries, it is considered human nature to want to escape from a prison and it is considered as a violation of the right of freedom, so escape is not penalized in itself (in the absence of other factors such as threats of violence, actual violence, or property damage)."

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_escape

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by iforgotpassword on Sunday August 07, 2022 @04:28PM (#32379587)
Because it's a natural instinct to seek freedom. It's in human nature. Like, expecting a prisoner to keep sitting in their cell when suddenly all doors spring open is ridiculous.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by throwoutway on Sunday August 07, 2022 @05:13PM (#32379969)
Sure it’s a natural instinct, but society as a whole views it as ethically, morally, and legally “wrong”. We don’t allow individual’s selfish motives to rule society in other areas.

Either way, the person I was responding to did not say it was a natural desire, they only said it was “not wrong”.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by iforgotpassword on Sunday August 07, 2022 @06:32PM (#32380593)
I guess there are different levels on which you can look at this. If a rapist escapes from prison I certainly don't celebrate that. I want him to get captured again as quickly as possible. But I do not think it should add anything to his sentence, at least not for the attempt itself. If he hurt anyone, broke/stole something on his way out that's a different issue.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by mrtksn on Sunday August 07, 2022 @05:41PM (#32380189)
Not in Germany, apparently.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by prvit on Sunday August 07, 2022 @06:17PM (#32380475)
Not in most countries.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by jokowueu on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:11PM (#32378943)
There are major issues with Japan's justice system though . I mean just reading the link on this thread made me sad

Michael Taylor. Mr. Taylor pleaded guilty to aiding Mr. Ghosn’s escape and started a two-year sentence at Tokyo’s Fuchu Prison in the summer of 2021; he spends much of his day in solitary confinement.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by exhilaration on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:19PM (#32379005)
Just in case the folks reading this comment don't see what's so bad about solitary confinement: Prolonged solitary confinement amounts to psychological torture, says UN expert https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-state...
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by mrtksn on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:07PM (#32378910)
I think the burden for imprisonment and compelling people to stay in prison is on the punishers.

That should not be confused with the crimes being wrong, I'm talking about ones desire not to be imprisoned being a natural desire and acting on it not being wrong by itself.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by collegeburner on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:05PM (#32378883)
meh it's the shit that got them in there that was wrong. it may give us the justification to hold them prisoner but they still aren't morally required to not escape. like it's up to the judge what sentence they get so how could that even be a moral obligation?
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by kwere on Monday August 08, 2022 @10:26AM (#32385786)
japanese democracy has a lot of "clauses"
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by CamperBob2 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:07PM (#32378899)
I've read that Japanese prosecutors win something like 98% of the cases they bring. If true, it suggests that either they let a lot of crimes go unprosecuted in Japan, which doesn't ring true, or that their police have godlike powers of investigation and discernment (ditto), or that the adversarial court system really is a bit too adversarial from the defendant's point of view.

So I can't say I wouldn't have done the same as Ghosn, given the necessary resources. Right or wrong wouldn't be a consideration, as long as I could rationalize an assumption of bad faith on the courts' part.

Edit: I guess it could also suggest that the police in Japan are hopeless fuckups who only manage to catch the most flagrantly-incompetent criminals. That doesn't sound any more realistic than the other possibilities IMO.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by tptacek on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:21PM (#32379025)
It would be fucked up if prosecutors weren't winning well over 90% of their cases, because being prosecuted is a punishment in and of itself --- it's ruinously expensive. So you'd very much hope prosecution is reserved for slam-dunk cases, as federal prosecution is in the US, where prosecutors also have a ~95% success rate.

They alternative, where prosecutors lose so many cases that their win rate goes down into the 70's or 60's, implies that prosecutors are taking lots of flyers just see how the cases shake out. That would be a tremendous abuse.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by nicolas_t on Sunday August 07, 2022 @04:30PM (#32379603)
It's actually more than 99% conviction rate with some sources [1] saying 99.9%.

A great movie on the Japanese judicial system is I just didn't do it (Soredemo boku wa yattenai) [2] It's a phenomenal movie but really shows that Japan has a real issues.

Given that if I were Ghosn, I'd have escaped too, there was no way for him to get a fair trial in Japan.

[1] https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-c... [2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0794350/

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by labster on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:25PM (#32379054)
All of those options are true, but you forgot the forced confessions. 30 days detention before charging is long enough for the bruises to heal. On the other hand, they prosecute far less crime across all categories than in the United States.

The staff of prosecutors is much smaller in Japan, so it likely means they mostly prosecute the winnable cases. In contrast in the US, a district attorney might choose to prosecute cases which make themself more electable.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by chrischen on Sunday August 07, 2022 @04:38PM (#32379669)
The US has a lower prosecution rate because they “shoot first and ask questions later.” That is, prosecutors are more aggressive in just trying to blame someone… anyone… whether guilty or not by using plea deals. Of course conviction rate suffers because there is such a high percentage of false accusations that refuse plea bargains.

So you completely missed the case that Japan’s conviction rate is high because they may only prosecute people when there is actual evidence.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by UIUC_06 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @04:19PM (#32379506)
There is an unfortunate effect that that kind of success record produces:

The judge figures that you must be guilty, or they wouldn't be charging you.

There's an old baseball story, where Rogers Hornsby (one of the greatest hitters of all time) is up, a pitch comes in, and the ump calls it a ball. The catcher turns around to complain.

The ump says "Young man, if that was a strike, Mr. Hornsby would have swung at it."

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by RajT88 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:29PM (#32379097)
From what I've read, I suspect both those things are true: lots of crimes go unprosecuted, as well as the police having godlike powers.

But - FWIW - prosecutors in the US tend to have win rates north of 90% as well. 98% is excessively high, yes, but we're talking single digit percentages compared to a country with comparatively more crime.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by KerrAvon on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:19PM (#32378458)
it’s really not that clear cut, though
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by kergonath on Sunday August 07, 2022 @05:14PM (#32379978)
Come on! The guy is wanted in 13 countries for (amongst others) tax evasion, corruption, embezzlement, fraud, and forgery.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by yomkippur on Sunday August 07, 2022 @04:35PM (#32379647)
he is also wanted in France for similar embezzlement, I don't understand why so many expats and people who never been in Japan are suddenly defending a grifter.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by chrischen on Sunday August 07, 2022 @05:05PM (#32379882)
Not convicted yet, and apparently he does want to be tried just in France and not in Japan.

A lot of the accusations are for standard rich people crimes which is some amount of tax avoidance. You can basically pick and choose who you want to target because as panama papers shows pretty much all rich people are dodging taxes to some degree.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by yomkippur on Sunday August 07, 2022 @05:09PM (#32379922)
Except he wasn't evading taxes, he was paying himself extra money that he deemed was justified but was not approved or made aware to the company. I don't know why people are defending Ghosn, I suspect with all that money, he was able to hire an internet marketing company to flood the comment section like they did on Reddit.

Still doesn't change the fact that Interpol has a red notice for Ghosn.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by chrischen on Monday August 08, 2022 @02:48AM (#32382961)
Seems more like a civil thing. He was the CEO. Seemed like they used all these things as reasons to oust him. Doesn’t change the fact that trial hasn’t happened yet.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by zen_1 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:41PM (#32381965)
I hope he'll be thrown in prison (after a fair trial ofc) along with Do Kwon, Alex Mashinsky and all the other financial criminals we've seen pop up recently.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by nashashmi on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:57PM (#32378799)
Remember when a person gets accused of financial impropriety after years of abuse, it usually is a cartel based takedown.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by nxm on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:52PM (#32378750)
Has he been proven guilty? I like to believe innocent until proven guilty
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by blackguardx on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:12PM (#32378950)
There likely won’t be a trial. He fled justice. It is hard to try people in absentia.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by collegeburner on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:17PM (#32378438)
imo his concerns about the japanese justice system arent all wrong. so not that simple. if i was in his position i'd probably do the same.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by JumpCrisscross on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:23PM (#32378505)
> his concerns about the japanese justice system arent all wrong. so not that simple

Conveniently, he cannot stand trial in France, which has also called for his arrest based on their own investigations, because he chose to become an international fugitive in Lebanon [1].

That said, I believe there has been prosecutorial interest around Anthony Ghosn--Carlos's son living in, to my last recollection, California--due to payments he made to the Taylors [2]. (The daughter, Maya, who is profiled in the article helping him escape is also in California, though there is no interest in charging her to my knowledge.)

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-issues-international-arr...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nissan-ghosn-taylor-bail-...

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by daniel-thompson on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:46PM (#32378701)
> Conveniently, he cannot stand trial in France, which has also called for his arrest based on their own investigations, because he chose to become an international fugitive in Lebanon.

(Without getting into value judgments about the merits of the case,) this quote from Leo McGarry comes to mind:

> Well, that's why he did it. You can't fault him for having a winning strategy.

http://www.westwingtranscripts.com/search.php?flag=getTransc...

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by yehShapey on Sunday August 07, 2022 @02:32PM (#32378567)
Nation states would never put out empty statements they know they legally cannot act on to soothe other nation states, or, less charitable to the French government, collude with other nation states to imprison inconvenient actors.

I know the tech scene tends to fawn over Japanese culture, but business and government there lean conservative like every other nation state right now. My experience is that it’s 100% possible some xenophobes within industry have a very “Brexit-like” mentality about their nation and the fear of Renault-Nissan culture clash was leveraged to trump up charges.

Note I said it’s possible. Ultimately none of us really know, but the Japanese are “just people” too. No reason to believe they’re aren’t pulling an “Assange” like the west.

Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by collegeburner on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:06PM (#32378889)
ofc he can't stand trial in france bc they will extradite him to japan instead. he got the assange problem.
Re:Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan by Scoundreller on Sunday August 07, 2022 @05:10PM (#32379946)
More likely they would hand him to France. Lebanon gets a lot more out of France than Japan.