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Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by senttoschool on Sunday August 07, 2022 @09:50AM (#32376463)
We already buy everything from China. Pretty much everything you own in your home is made in China already, including the computer you're using to browse HN and the router you use to connect to internet. If China and the US severe relationships, the world will go into a depression anyways.

Intel CEO Pat most certainly finessed the government into giving Intel a huge payout by exaggerating this threat.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by Cyph0n on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:11AM (#32376602)
There is a crucial difference between IC fabrication and almost everything else: we don’t even have the capability to fabricate at the most advanced nodes. On the other hand, we are capable of manufacturing everything else; we just need a bit of time to set things up and ramp up capacity.

If we don’t gain that capability now, it will take us too long to recover when push actually comes to shove.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by ac29 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:26PM (#32379068)
> we don’t even have the capability to fabricate at the most advanced nodes.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. If we define "most advanced nodes" as 5nm-class fabrication, certainly Intel is doing that well now, just not in volume production. Intel 4 based Meteor Lake powered on and runs Windows as of earlier this year.

No capability to build and not ready for volume manufacturing aren't really the same class of problem.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by Cyph0n on Sunday August 07, 2022 @07:03PM (#32380793)
So Intel is 2 years behind volume production of 5nm by TSMC and Samsung. To me, that sounds like a significant delay in capability.

Anyways, I think the CHIPS Act was the right move at the right time. SMIC is quickly catching up thanks to near unlimited funding from the Chinese government. We need to play the same game if we ever want to catch up to TSMC.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by User23 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:32AM (#32376768)
I think the USA is just as capable of writing fat checks to ASML as Taiwan is.
Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by Cyph0n on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:47AM (#32376884)
There’s a bit more to IC fabrication than lithography.

Regardless, I’d go further and argue that we should be building up the capability to manufacture our own EUV lithography machines.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by User23 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:39AM (#32377285)
The USA developed the technology, holds the patents, and licensed them to ASML. They basically are our machines. That’s why Trump was able to block the China deal.
Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by Cyph0n on Sunday August 07, 2022 @12:26PM (#32377660)
Uh.. what? Can you share a link?

As far as I am aware, it’s the exact opposite: over the years, ASML licensed some of their patents to US companies.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by User23 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @01:11PM (#32377958)
It’s surprisingly hard to craft a search query to get a nice link. Nevertheless, here[1] you can find a somewhat oblique reference.

[1] https://asiatimes.com/2022/07/how-china-could-leapfrog-us-ch...

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by Cyph0n on Sunday August 07, 2022 @01:33PM (#32378104)
Ah, I think that’s referring to some of the suppliers (and IP) ASML uses to build its machines, not the EUV tech itself.

If you think about it, ASML wouldn’t be this critical to semiconductor fabrication if it didn’t control the patents for its core tech.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by dragontamer on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:25AM (#32376720)
> We already buy everything from China. Pretty much everything you own in your home is made in China already, including the computer you're using to browse HN and the router you use to connect to internet. If China and the US severe relationships, the world will go into a depression anyways.

Not as bad as if Taiwan's exports to the USA are stopped.

We can build motherboards / pick-and-place machines in the USA. We literally cannot make the chips that are coming out of Taiwan right now. Samsung is the #2 IIRC, so maybe South Korea can pick up the slack in a hypothetical Taiwan-conflict.

> Intel CEO Pat most certainly finessed the government into giving Intel a huge payout by exaggerating this threat.

US Government is also got TSMC (Taiwan's semiconductor fabs) to build an Arizona fab-lab. Look, even Taiwan is scared of possible conflict and is hedging on the physical safety of the USA.

Hopefully conflict doesn't happen, but the powers that be are making smart moves here. Hopefully it will be enough.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by patentatt on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:48AM (#32376891)
The government and people of Taiwan understand that TSMC is a major reason mainland China hasn't bulldozed their tiny island yet. It's their ace in the hole. They have a monopoly on arguably the most important technology in the world right now, and the US and EU will protect them as long as they hold that monopoly. There's no way they'd actually physically offshore that golden goose. It's a brilliant move by Taiwan, and I highly doubt they'd voluntarily give it up.
Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by dragontamer on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:02AM (#32377015)
> There's no way they'd actually physically offshore that golden goose. It's a brilliant move by Taiwan, and I highly doubt they'd voluntarily give it up.

5nm Fab is being built right now in Arizona though by TSMC. They're beginning to offshore fabs.

Look up any information on "TSMC Fab21".

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by sillystuff on Sunday August 07, 2022 @12:39PM (#32377750)
TSMC's Arizona fab is slated to start 5nm production in 2024. TSMC announced high volume 3nm production, by their Taiwan fabs, by the end of 2022.

TSMC isn't giving up their cutting edge technology, just what will be considered an old node size by 2024.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by modeless on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:59AM (#32377449)
By the time the fab is done 5nm won't be cutting edge anymore.
Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by CamperBob2 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @03:31PM (#32379118)
It will be if China invades Taiwan. They will not be able to keep the TSMC facility in business for very long, assuming it survives the attack to begin with.

Where life will get interesting is in South Korea, at the Samsung fab. They will have the only 3-nm process in the world if TSMC goes away.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by ethbr0 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:09AM (#32377071)
I'd assume TSMC chose the practical optimum there: given current events, having all leading fans physically in Taiwan was no longer a tenable option.

So they re-balanced for a volume play.

If some (read: national security volume) fabs in EU / US are enough to assuage governments, but most (read: global economically important volume) are still in Taiwan, then that's the next best thing.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by Throwawayaerlei on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:32AM (#32376769)
"US Government is also got TSMC (Taiwan's semiconductor fabs) to build an Arizona fab-lab. Look, even Taiwan is scared of possible conflict and is hedging on the physical safety of the USA."

I don't think that's the case, as I understand it this comes from the US wanting to onshore some of TSMC's capabilities and Taiwan screwing up electricity production on the island.

It does Taiwan the government and ruling class no good whatsoever to place assets beyond the PRC's military reach, rather the incentives are entirely opposite of that. The more valuable TSMC's fab lines there are, the more incentive the US has to help with the ROC's defense, or war if it comes to that. Which in the case of torpedoes from attack subs can even be done with some plausible deniability.

Re:Intel expands Oregon Fab building; 18A Node now 2024 by dragontamer on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:00AM (#32376997)
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tsmcs-arizona-fab-construc...

The TSMC factory in Arizona is full speed ahead. Its literally in Arizona right now, undergoing construction / hiring / spinning up.