News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by gojomo on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:42PM (#32345207)
If you give humans gobbledygook input – say a Rorschach blot, or some random syllables – and ask them to describe what it makes them think of, or generate art from it, many will do so quite competently.

They'll find some morsels of fragmentary hints-of-meaning in the junk, or just act from whatever's bouncing around in their own 'ground state', and make something interesting & coherent, to please their interlocutor.

So I don't see why this corner-case impugns the level-of-comprehension in DALLE/etc – either in its specific case, nor in the other cases where meaningful input produces equally-meaningful responses.

In what ways are you yourself not just a "very complex & impressive mirror", reflecting the sum-of-all external-influences (training data), & internal-state-changes, since your boot-up?

Your expectationthat random input should result in noise output is the weird to me. People can see all sorts of omens & images in randomness; why wouldn't AIs?

But also: if you trained that expectation into an AI, you could get that result. Just as if you coached a human, in a decade or 2 of formal schooling, that queries with less than a threshold level of coherence should generate an exceptional objection, rather than a best-guess answer, you could get humans to do so.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by bglazer on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:13PM (#32345584)
I think most people would find it more difficult to draw a “serkle nufding” than a “spotted dog”. At the very least, they would need an explanation that you’re looking for whatever pops into their head for the nonsense. Again, that indicates that human intelligence works in a fundamentally different way from DALLE, which has absolutely no idea what is nonsense. So, in this incredibly important task (recognizing nonsense) there’s an asymmetry: people can act like DALLE, but DALLE can not act like humans. To me, that totally breaks any equivalence between DALLE and human intelligence.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by dtech on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:37PM (#32345884)
Then again, if you lock a human in a room, tell it "draw me things based on the notes you receive or you will be killed", and give it a note "serkle nufding", you bet the human will draw something.

Given the model has only 1 input and 1 output and training is essentially surviving that order, it's not dissimilar.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by caconym_ on Thursday August 04, 2022 @03:56PM (#32347528)
When I read the words "serkle nufding" I pictured in my head, with zero perceptible delay, a weird little goblin guy with pale green skin and long ears and a pointy hat.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by sarchertech on Thursday August 04, 2022 @04:57PM (#32348212)
Serkle Nufding sounds like a word. What about “xywjlkbtywlsjjsnskksbrjsksbsysjsnsjdkdmdnd”?
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by astrange on Friday August 05, 2022 @01:42AM (#32352182)
That sounds like Welsh, but pointier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by caconym_ on Thursday August 04, 2022 @06:59PM (#32349374)
Honestly? The top half of a signpost bearing the name of a Welsh village in white on green (likely an artifact of my actual local signage standards). The tops of some broadleaf deciduous trees, possibly ash, are visible in the background, but the perspective is from below (as one usually looks up at a street sign, also probably an artifact of my local experience with signs rather than a true representation of Welsh signage) and so the background is dominated by a blue sky.

This is probably because your string is a low-entropy keyboard-mash.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by simondw on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:31PM (#32345817)
> they would need an explanation that you’re looking for whatever pops into their head

Of course. And the equivalent of that explanation is baked into DALL-E, in the form of its programming to always generate an image.

> but DALLE can not act like humans

No, not generally, but I don't think anyone has claimed that.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by bglazer on Thursday August 04, 2022 @04:21PM (#32347819)
What else always produces an image, no matter what you present to it?
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by simondw on Thursday August 04, 2022 @06:00PM (#32348846)
Lots of things, but I'm not sure why you're asking that. Could you connect that back to the point you're making?
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by bglazer on Thursday August 04, 2022 @09:55PM (#32350582)
Sorry for being obtuse. I was referring to a mirror. The point being that people take objection to DALLE being characterized as a mirror but it behaves similarly in this regard
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by saynay on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:53PM (#32346079)
I am not really sure that this is a basis to say human intelligence is fundamentally different. If you ask a human to draw a picture based on nonsensical input, they probably wont. That might not be a difference in process, but in agency.

So is a single-purpose AI equivalent to the entirety of the Human Experience? Of course not. But can it be similar in functionality to a small sliver of it?

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by londons_explore on Thursday August 04, 2022 @02:00PM (#32346186)
I just got Dalle-2 to draw a "serkle nufding". It gave me 4 pictures of rather odd looking food. I too assume that random words are usually food, if only because restaurant menus seem to have such a love of making up foreign sounding words.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by dane-pgp on Thursday August 04, 2022 @04:43PM (#32348079)
> a love of making up foreign sounding words

One great example of this phenomenon is "Häagen-Dazs".[0]

Admittedly that's a brand name, rather than a specific dish, but I assume that Dalle-2 would generate an image of ice cream if given a prompt with that term in it (unless there is a restriction on trademarks?).

[0] https://funfactz.com/food-and-drink-facts/haagen-dazs-name/

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by gojomo on Thursday August 04, 2022 @05:25PM (#32348482)
I've not tested this, but I suspect you can get DALLE to create pictures that humans are more likely to describe as 'nonsense' by adding 'nonsense' or 'nonsensical' to the prompt. That'd indicate that it absolutely does have an idea about 'nonsense' and can recognize, & reproduce within its constrained output, 'nonsense' that's largely compatible with human ideas of what 'nonsense' is.

Asking it to produce noise, or raise an objection that a prompt isn't sufficiently meaningful to render, is a silly standard because it's been designed, and trained, to always give some result. Humans who can object have been trained differently.

Also, the GPT models – another similar train-by-example deep-neural architecture – can give far better answers, or give sensible evaluations of the quality of its answer, when properly prompted to do so. If you wanted a model that'd flag nonsense, just give it enough examples, and enough range-of-output where the answer your demanding is even possible, and it'll do it. Maybe better than people.

The circumstances & limits of the single-medium (text, or captioned image) training goals, and allowable outputs, absolutely establish that these are different from a full-fledged human. A human has decades of reinforcement-training via multiple senses, and more output options, among other things.

But to observe that difference and conclude these models don't "understand" the concepts they are so deftly remixing, or are "just a very complex and impressive mirror", does not follow from the mere difference.

In their single-modalities, constrained as they may be, they can train the equivalent of a million lifetimes of reading, or image-rendering. Objectively, they're arguable now better at composing college-level essays, or rendering many kinds of art, than most random humans picked off the street would be. Maybe even better than 90% of all humans on earth at these narrow tasks. And, their rate of improvement seems only a matter of how much model-size & training-data they're given.

Further: the narrowness of the tasks is by designers' choice, NOT inherent to the architectures. You could – and active projects are – training similar multi-modality networks. A mixed GPT/DALLE that renders essays with embedded supporting pictures/graphs isn't implausible.