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Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by bglazer on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:26PM (#32345004)
I can give a random string of letters as a prompt and DALLE will generate coherent images based on that. To me, that is as clear a signal as any that there is no reasoning or even a consistent world model embodied in DALLE. It’s simply a high dimensional latent mapping between characters and pixels. Like OP said, that is a stupendous achievement, but it is just a very complex and impressive mirror. If it wasn’t just a mapping between characters and pixels, and instead DALLE had intelligence that “understood” the symbols it manipulated, then I would expect it to generate nothing, or white noise in response to random letters.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by gojomo on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:42PM (#32345207)
If you give humans gobbledygook input – say a Rorschach blot, or some random syllables – and ask them to describe what it makes them think of, or generate art from it, many will do so quite competently.

They'll find some morsels of fragmentary hints-of-meaning in the junk, or just act from whatever's bouncing around in their own 'ground state', and make something interesting & coherent, to please their interlocutor.

So I don't see why this corner-case impugns the level-of-comprehension in DALLE/etc – either in its specific case, nor in the other cases where meaningful input produces equally-meaningful responses.

In what ways are you yourself not just a "very complex & impressive mirror", reflecting the sum-of-all external-influences (training data), & internal-state-changes, since your boot-up?

Your expectationthat random input should result in noise output is the weird to me. People can see all sorts of omens & images in randomness; why wouldn't AIs?

But also: if you trained that expectation into an AI, you could get that result. Just as if you coached a human, in a decade or 2 of formal schooling, that queries with less than a threshold level of coherence should generate an exceptional objection, rather than a best-guess answer, you could get humans to do so.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by bglazer on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:13PM (#32345584)
I think most people would find it more difficult to draw a “serkle nufding” than a “spotted dog”. At the very least, they would need an explanation that you’re looking for whatever pops into their head for the nonsense. Again, that indicates that human intelligence works in a fundamentally different way from DALLE, which has absolutely no idea what is nonsense. So, in this incredibly important task (recognizing nonsense) there’s an asymmetry: people can act like DALLE, but DALLE can not act like humans. To me, that totally breaks any equivalence between DALLE and human intelligence.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by dtech on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:37PM (#32345884)
Then again, if you lock a human in a room, tell it "draw me things based on the notes you receive or you will be killed", and give it a note "serkle nufding", you bet the human will draw something.

Given the model has only 1 input and 1 output and training is essentially surviving that order, it's not dissimilar.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by caconym_ on Thursday August 04, 2022 @03:56PM (#32347528)
When I read the words "serkle nufding" I pictured in my head, with zero perceptible delay, a weird little goblin guy with pale green skin and long ears and a pointy hat.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by sarchertech on Thursday August 04, 2022 @04:57PM (#32348212)
Serkle Nufding sounds like a word. What about “xywjlkbtywlsjjsnskksbrjsksbsysjsnsjdkdmdnd”?
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by astrange on Friday August 05, 2022 @01:42AM (#32352182)
That sounds like Welsh, but pointier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by caconym_ on Thursday August 04, 2022 @06:59PM (#32349374)
Honestly? The top half of a signpost bearing the name of a Welsh village in white on green (likely an artifact of my actual local signage standards). The tops of some broadleaf deciduous trees, possibly ash, are visible in the background, but the perspective is from below (as one usually looks up at a street sign, also probably an artifact of my local experience with signs rather than a true representation of Welsh signage) and so the background is dominated by a blue sky.

This is probably because your string is a low-entropy keyboard-mash.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by simondw on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:31PM (#32345817)
> they would need an explanation that you’re looking for whatever pops into their head

Of course. And the equivalent of that explanation is baked into DALL-E, in the form of its programming to always generate an image.

> but DALLE can not act like humans

No, not generally, but I don't think anyone has claimed that.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by bglazer on Thursday August 04, 2022 @04:21PM (#32347819)
What else always produces an image, no matter what you present to it?
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by simondw on Thursday August 04, 2022 @06:00PM (#32348846)
Lots of things, but I'm not sure why you're asking that. Could you connect that back to the point you're making?
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by bglazer on Thursday August 04, 2022 @09:55PM (#32350582)
Sorry for being obtuse. I was referring to a mirror. The point being that people take objection to DALLE being characterized as a mirror but it behaves similarly in this regard
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by saynay on Thursday August 04, 2022 @01:53PM (#32346079)
I am not really sure that this is a basis to say human intelligence is fundamentally different. If you ask a human to draw a picture based on nonsensical input, they probably wont. That might not be a difference in process, but in agency.

So is a single-purpose AI equivalent to the entirety of the Human Experience? Of course not. But can it be similar in functionality to a small sliver of it?

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by londons_explore on Thursday August 04, 2022 @02:00PM (#32346186)
I just got Dalle-2 to draw a "serkle nufding". It gave me 4 pictures of rather odd looking food. I too assume that random words are usually food, if only because restaurant menus seem to have such a love of making up foreign sounding words.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by dane-pgp on Thursday August 04, 2022 @04:43PM (#32348079)
> a love of making up foreign sounding words

One great example of this phenomenon is "Häagen-Dazs".[0]

Admittedly that's a brand name, rather than a specific dish, but I assume that Dalle-2 would generate an image of ice cream if given a prompt with that term in it (unless there is a restriction on trademarks?).

[0] https://funfactz.com/food-and-drink-facts/haagen-dazs-name/

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by gojomo on Thursday August 04, 2022 @05:25PM (#32348482)
I've not tested this, but I suspect you can get DALLE to create pictures that humans are more likely to describe as 'nonsense' by adding 'nonsense' or 'nonsensical' to the prompt. That'd indicate that it absolutely does have an idea about 'nonsense' and can recognize, & reproduce within its constrained output, 'nonsense' that's largely compatible with human ideas of what 'nonsense' is.

Asking it to produce noise, or raise an objection that a prompt isn't sufficiently meaningful to render, is a silly standard because it's been designed, and trained, to always give some result. Humans who can object have been trained differently.

Also, the GPT models – another similar train-by-example deep-neural architecture – can give far better answers, or give sensible evaluations of the quality of its answer, when properly prompted to do so. If you wanted a model that'd flag nonsense, just give it enough examples, and enough range-of-output where the answer your demanding is even possible, and it'll do it. Maybe better than people.

The circumstances & limits of the single-medium (text, or captioned image) training goals, and allowable outputs, absolutely establish that these are different from a full-fledged human. A human has decades of reinforcement-training via multiple senses, and more output options, among other things.

But to observe that difference and conclude these models don't "understand" the concepts they are so deftly remixing, or are "just a very complex and impressive mirror", does not follow from the mere difference.

In their single-modalities, constrained as they may be, they can train the equivalent of a million lifetimes of reading, or image-rendering. Objectively, they're arguable now better at composing college-level essays, or rendering many kinds of art, than most random humans picked off the street would be. Maybe even better than 90% of all humans on earth at these narrow tasks. And, their rate of improvement seems only a matter of how much model-size & training-data they're given.

Further: the narrowness of the tasks is by designers' choice, NOT inherent to the architectures. You could – and active projects are – training similar multi-modality networks. A mixed GPT/DALLE that renders essays with embedded supporting pictures/graphs isn't implausible.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by IIAOPSW on Thursday August 04, 2022 @02:06PM (#32346269)
I've done my share of testing randomish prompts. Here's two examples that might change your mind slightly. The first example is "E sublimary widge fraus chronly becross yon corpti." I constructed this sentence to resemble the grammar, syllables and pacing of English, but it is complete nonsense. The output was both consistent and coherent. In the case of DallE, it generated church and saint related images. The second example was ".- / ... . -- .- .--. .... --- .-. . / .-.. .- -- .--. / .- -... --- ...- . / - .... . / -.-. .-.. .- ... ... --- -. / .- ...- . -. ..- . / ... ..- -... .-- .- -.-- / ... - .- - .. --- -." There are clearly not enough (any?) samples of morse code text in the training. The output was wholly unrelated to the prompt. The output is kind of like doodling. Its fairly random, fairly undirected without any real theme, but its not the same randomness as TV static. Its more like randomness from a distribution of things people would draw when bored.

So the interesting part is this, why did one random prompt fail in a consistent way and the other in a random way? Perhaps the encoding of meaning into vocabulary has patterns to it that we ourselves haven't noticed. Maybe your random string experiment works because there is some amount of meaning in the syllables that happened to be in your chosen string.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by semi-extrinsic on Thursday August 04, 2022 @06:00PM (#32348841)
Your first random prompt is far from random. It contains the fragments "sublim", "chr", "cross" and "corpt" in addition to the isolated "E", which all project the solution down towards Latin and Christianity.

You can easily see that these language models are in some sense working on fragments as much as they are on the actual words isolated by spaces in your sentence. Just take a test sentence and enter as a prompt to get some images. Then take that same sentence, remove all spaces and add new spaces in random locations, making gibberish words. You will see that the results will retain quite a few elements from the original prompt, while other things (predominantly monosyllables) become lost.

To me, I have not seen a single example that cannot just be explained by saying this is all just linear algebra, with a mind-bogglingly huge and nasty set of operators that has some randomness in it and that projects from the vector space of sentences written in ASCII letters onto a small subset of the vector space of 1024x1024x24bit images.

If you then think about doing this just in the "stupid way", imagine you have an input vector that is 4096 bytes long (in some sense the character limit of DALL-E 2) and an output vector that is 3 million bytes long. A single dense matrix representing one such mapping has 6 billion parameters - but you want something very sparse here, since you know that the output is very sparse in the possible output vector space. So let's say you have a sparsity factor of somewhere around 10^5. Then with the 3.5 billion parameters of DALL-E 2, you can "afford" somewhere around 10^5 such matrices. Of course you can apply these matrices successively.

Is it then so far fetched to believe that if you thought of those 10^5 matrices as a basis set for your transformation, with a separate ordering vector to say which matrices to apply in what order, and you then spent a huge amount of computing power running an optimizer to get a very good basis set and a very good dictionary of ordering vectors, based on a large corpus of images with caption, that you would not get something comparably impressive as DALL-E 2?

When people are wowed that you can change the style of the image by saying "oil painting" or "impressionist", what more is that than one more of the basis set matrices being tacked on in the ordering vector?

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by IIAOPSW on Friday August 05, 2022 @01:55AM (#32352269)
We don't disagree at all about what DallE does or what I would expect to see on certain outputs. What I'm saying is maybe that output is actually correct and we just don't know it yet. Maybe the brain really does encode some amount of information on just the sound fragments. Maybe vocabulary words aren't wholly arbitrary signifiers but instead come from some deeper system our brain uses to encode things. There is already a known human version of consistent output given nonsense words. Its called Bouba and Kiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect

There's other evidence in support of this idea, but it would be a hassle for me to dig it up now.

>Your first random prompt is far from random. It contains the fragments "sublim", "chr", "cross" and "corpt" in addition to the isolated "E", which all project the solution down towards Latin and Christianity.

Oh right, I omitted a sentence. DallE gave me churches. DallE-mini gave me bicycle racing and beetles. Both of them behaved self-consistently, but were not consistent with each other. I did test changing some of the words that seemed like they might be having the steering effects like you pointed out. The new phrase was "E sublumary widge fraus chronly non estoi". DallE mini gave me mostly doctors/medical procedures with a few indiscernible scenes mixed in. Real DallE gave me scrabble, word tiles, pages from a book.

Its like this. If you talk to a dog with the "who's a good boy" voice, the dog will understand "who's a good boy", even if you're actually saying "who's a little asshole". Likewise, a pronounceable string will generally feel like it belongs within a certain envelope of meanings, even if its not actually a phrase in any real spoken language.

I showed some maps that DallE generated which happened to have some places labelled with its usual gibberish. People said the place names felt vaguely like they might be in Eastern Europe. Interpretation of nonsense words works both in the direction of human to DallE and DallE to human!

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by rhdunn on Thursday August 04, 2022 @05:07PM (#32348297)
I suspect it is designed to describe images, like you would find in alt text but run in reverse. As your first example is closer to English it can do a better job than with the second example, like how the Jabberwocky poem contains nonsense words but still makes some degree of sense.

For example, the "yon" is immediately reconizable to me (hither and yon), so "yon corpti" could mean a distant corpti (whatever a corpti is). "becross" looks similar to "across" but with a be- prefix (be-tween, be-neath, be-twixt, etc.), so could be an archaic form of that. "chronly" could be something time related (chronos+ly). etc...

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by gojomo on Thursday August 04, 2022 @05:32PM (#32348564)
Indeed - the 'cadence of English' prompt reminds me of Latin, or some other foreign-litany that's nonetheless repeated to an audience that's not following every word. And ~IIAOPSW has used real word-roots, hinting at meanings! (The FastText algorithm does a passable job at synthesizing word-vectors for unknown words using such fragments.) So rendering that as a religious scene isn't too surprising.

That morse code gives nothing useful probably just indicates some combination of – (a) few morse transcripts in training set; (b) punctuation-handling in training or prompting – makes it more opaque. It's opaque to me, other than recognizing it's morse code.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by IIAOPSW on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:55AM (#32353032)
I accidentally omitted a sentence. I tested it on DallE mini as well. It also behaved consistently there, but that version gave me mostly Beetles with a few bike races mixed in. I also played slightly with the nonsense words to see if perhaps something I picked was too close to a real word. The revised prompt gave me doctors on DallE mini and letter tiles / notebook pages in DallE, with the mini-version producing two noteworthy images that exhibit the "name one thing in this photo" effect.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/04/25/14/12707994-6959547-...

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by gojomo on Friday August 05, 2022 @03:30PM (#32360861)
I'm not particularly surprised that official DALL-E & unofficial DallE-Mini went different directions with the same input, as they're different-sized models with different training sets.

Below a certain level of complexity, perhaps only "vaguely like beetle or bicycle/race names" arbitrarily survived all the other competing influences on the model's internal weights. Above, much more subtle patterns – like many more latinate word roots – might start to survive.

Compare also what I linked in another thread branch – https://twitter.com/gojomo/status/1540095089615089665 – where simply growing the size of a similar (non-public Google PARTI) model leads to a phase-change in its ability to render meaningful human text.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by elcomet on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:37PM (#32345145)
I agree there's no high level reasoning (if there's a way to define this).

But saying "It’s simply a high dimensional latent mapping between characters and pixels" is clearly a very bad argument. Your brain is simply a high dimensional latent mapping between your sensory input and your muscular output. This doesn't make you not intelligent.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by thfuran on Thursday August 04, 2022 @02:23PM (#32346489)
>Your brain is simply a high dimensional latent mapping between your sensory input and your muscular output

It definitely does more than that.

Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by elcomet on Thursday August 04, 2022 @04:28PM (#32347913)
What do you mean? Your brain is a high dimensional function. I'm not talking about what it is able to do, I'm talking about what it is.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by thfuran on Thursday August 04, 2022 @09:08PM (#32350281)
The brain controls things other than muscles and also doesn't stop in sensory isolation. If it's a high dimensional function, it's not one between sensory input and muscle actuation.
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by elcomet on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:13PM (#32351112)
I'm not sure what you mean, what else does it control and what are its other inputs?
Re:Is DALL-E 2 ‘gluing things together’ without understandin... by Joeri on Thursday August 04, 2022 @12:50PM (#32345298)
Dall-e must generate an image, even for a random prompt of letters, because it has been trained to do only that. Take a human, hold a gun to their head, and force them to paint an image for a random string of letters, and I guarantee they will make you something.

Retrain dall-e and give it a choice whether it generates an image or does something else, and you will get a different outcome.

The argument boils down to this: is a human brain nothing but a mapping of inputs onto outputs that loops back on itself? If so the dall-e / gpt-3 approach can scale up to the same complexity. If not, why not?