It's not about giving up on them. It's about being willing to accept that you haven't lived up to those values and make the changes necessary to uphold them.

While still in the wrong, how seriously should China or Russia take the country that lead the invasion and occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan for 20 odd years when it offers it's condemnation of their own ambitions?

To be frank, how can we expect anyone to take our condemnation seriously when we are currently doing the same things or have let the same things go unpunished in recent memory. We refuse to hold our own torturers and war criminals to proper account.

Do you feel at all represented by your elected officials? Did you vote for them? If not, why would you accept the burden of guilt for their actions?

A relative handful of people made all the torture decisions for us. I don't think I want them hiding behind the flag, or me.

> Do you feel at all represented by your elected officials? Did you vote for them? If not, why would you accept the burden of guilt for their actions?

Personally it varies depending on the official. I think at some level we do bear some responsibility for those who represent us, I don't necessarily believe that crosses into guilt as much it does a call to action. The corrupt and unethical rely on a combination of apathy and normalisation in order to get away with their actions.

> A relative handful of people made all the torture decisions for us. I don't think I want them hiding behind the flag, or me.

I want them pushed out from behind the flag and into a jail cell.

Russia and China also have lists of noble values that they don't live up to. That's not a distinction.

I think the argument is that there is not so much difference in result at the end, even though the projected image appears opposite.