Not sure what your professional experience or knowledge of politics or technology is, but as a person working at a FAANG company living in the US, I would bet any amount of money that nothing like this will ever come out of any FAANG company in the next 30 years.
> "The Dragonfly project was an Internet search engine prototype created by Google that was designed to be compatible with China's state censorship provisions. The public learned of Dragonfly's existence in August 2018, when The Intercept leaked an internal memo written by a Google employee about the project."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine)
At least the project was leaked by a MAMAA employee (it's no longer FAANG), but there might be a kind of 'internal social credit score program' being applied in the Big Tech world to get rid of those with pesky moral standards...
Incidentally this is a major reason why democratization of corporations is important - I tend to believe the regular rank-and-file would be less willing to implement something like this than the top shareholders would.
> None of that is anything like what I was responding to, a system of forced labor camps
I saw stories from the US about debtor prisons and about for-pay prisons with very questionable tactics used to fill them, people who cannot fight back because they have no money, often don't ever get an actual date in court but are forced to submit to accepting a sentence because the prosecutor threatens them with trying to get an outrageous sentence should they actually want a real judgement.
https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/coercive-plea-...
It's old: https://elibrary.law.psu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&ht...
I think your opinion on what is possible in the US justice system depends on where you are, i.e. location, as well as in the social hierarchy.
There's been an unceasing procession of potentially-abused technologies in modern times, and we've more or less managed to thread the needle.
Instead of pessimism, I'd encourage people to engage in advocacy groups for their desired outcome!
It's not that a company like Google is going to release a Google Gulag product after years of working on it in secret.
What people are worried about is that the various pieces of technology that Google is developing can be used to make a horrible dystopian future and that one day, even if Google as a corporation, or the individuals who make up Google as employees decide to fight against it, they will be unable to stop a fascist government from using that technology to do exactly as is described by OP, or even worse.
There are unintended consequences to everything, and you may think that America is the freest nation on Earth, and that Google is the greatest company ever, but that could quickly change.
It could happen here, and we must be eternally vigilant.
I don't accept the premise that advertisements and product recommendations are even comparable to either themselves, or the internal combustion engine, nor that what Google produces is even comparable to traditional advertisements.
I only accept begrudgingly what bad actors like Google do with technology, and only because I don't really have any other choice, do I?
Without internal combustion engines (at least until electric replaces them), billions will starve as tractors can't plow fields, and trucks can't deliver food.
Without online ads and spying...?
There are ways to misuse ads, but it's hard to make the case that they are inherently bad without inserting weasel words like "surveillance" and "spying".
If the USA goes all the way towards fascism, the FAANGs will go along for the ride and implement all sorts of terrible things.
In India, we were expected to create value for our stakeholders, and bringing personal political views into office is deemed highly unprofessional. This doesn't stop the junior talents that are highly influenced by foreign media to have a go at it, but they're often silenced with righteous resolve.
Tldr: Employees that openly engages in activism are often seen as problematic elements, which severely degrade the cohesion and unity of a company, therefore they're often the first on the chopping block. Are things different in the states?
I don't understand. They are not influenced by the local media, somehow? Only "foreign" one? What is the magical mechanism behind that?
And of course, it's only "activism" when it does against the accepted order. The activism supporting current powers flows much more smoothly and does not cause any such ripples, so you conclude it does not exist?
Ethics are not politics. Engineers should be required to refuse unethical orders and work.
It also doesnt happen when the employee has more power.
Case in point: You generally cannot be a responsible adult, living within your means, and expect to have a credit score. Most utilities won't report on-time payments (and usually won't report until you are a few months late, sometimes only if you have a late final bill). Most landlords don't report. Saving for a used car doesn't earn you credit, and credit generally doesn't care if you have enough money in the bank or if you earn enough, at least if you aren't rich, anyway.
Basically, you need to have the right sort of credit history and borrow in the correct fashion: For most folks, this means getting a credit card or paying too much for a used car just to prove that one day, they might be reliable enough for a new car loan or a house loan. In the meantime: Don't go into medical debt. Don't avoid most debt and simply live within your means. Don't check your credit too much (This is around 10% of your score).
And not doing things correctly affects where you'll be allowed to live, where you can work, how much you pay for car insurance, and things like that.
Just because it isn't just like another countries doesn't mean it isn't a social score with a different name.
Framing zero-debt as being a "responsible adult" and "living within your means" doesn't make sense as a counter-argument. It's not social as it doesn't involve other people. For eg, your credit score isn't affected by the social associations you have with other people (with maybe the exception of marriage because that combines non-social assets). Your credit score isn't affected by your social interactions with other people. For eg, sharing your anarchist views with other people or maybe a bank teller doesn't affect your score.
It's also just untrue, leveraging zero-interest loans and loan perks like purchase protection can be very responsible and still living within your means.
This isn't really about left/right, it's about power. Governments simply can't be trusted with the power to track and target dissidents at scale.
We nerds are to a great extent the modern gatekeepers of that power. If people ask you to track and suppress free speech don't do it. It starts there.
I’m not sure how far back in time your experience or knowledge of politics or technology goes, but there are plenty of examples of the US government using technology of all levels to target and control individuals deemed “troublesome”.
S3E1, specifically.
If that's how things go hopefully they can implement it fast enough that they will be around to live through it all crashing down.
It would be unjust if uninvolved future generations wound up paying for their ancestors' sins.
If you don’t think the government doesn’t have a file on you, you haven’t been paying attention.
That only impact what rates your lenders will use(or if they will lend you money at all). That's no different from using your driving history and demographic data to set insurance rates. It's maintained by private companies. You can still use cash if you want.
No fly lists are an ok example. Still, they are not tied to how much brown nosing you do towards the people in charge.
That doesn't seem unreasonable to me that people who are entering some sort of financial contract with you have the ability to easy see your credit history.
But again, just don't use credit (or use it minimally) and you're good.
...Do keep in mind that the progenitors of Equifax and the other Credit Bureaus were private investigators most frequently hired by the well heeled in order to "gauge trustworthyness", which takes many forms... Including Union busting, and building blacklists.
If you don't use credit or use it minimally your credit score will begin to fall.
Maybe start with them?
A large number of stores around me, including some grocery stores, no longer take cash.
That's illegal where I live (New York City).
I have no interest in outing/doxxing you, but if you'd care to share where you live, I'd love to know where that is -- so I can make sure never to go there.
Technically the grocery store I am thinking off takes "cash" but only at registers that are perpetually closed. Maybe if someone made a huge fuss they would possibly open that register up.
Local barber shop, also only accepts credit cards.
At other stores, I've seen plenty of those self checkout terminals with the cash slot taped shut and a sign saying "card only", and of course no one is working the traditional checkout lanes.
Interesting. I've visited there a bunch of times and never had an issue using cash. I have a bunch of family there and will ask them if they see the same thing (Seattle is a pretty big town).
Do you care that stores make it hard to use cash?
I'd expect that many folks in Seattle are "unbanked" and are often inconvenienced and/or excluded by such practices.
Perhaps it's time for Seattle to move into the late 20th century[0] and require businesses to accept cash:
"New York City Council member Ritchie Torres last week proposed legislation that would require all local businesses to accept cash in addition to credit cards and contactless payment methods. Massachusetts has required since 1978 that no retailer "shall discriminate against a cash buyer by requiring the use of credit." New Jersey lawmakers on Monday advanced a bill to ban cashless stores. Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. have also introduced bills that would require businesses to accept cash."
The NYC legislation[1] mentioned above as a proposal was passed by the city council in 2020.
[0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cashless-retailers-penalize-the...
[1] https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3...
I wonder if the move away from cash is an attempt to reduce the risk of theft, but I have no direct knowledge of the situation.
Even the local (large, very large) Chinese supermarket is mostly cash-less. I presume technically they take cash, but every checkout line that is staffed says "card only".
Not according to DeNederlandsche Bank[0]:
"Consumers in the Netherlands can choose their preferred method of payment at most retailers. Although the use of cash at points of sale is declining, broad acceptance by retailers is also important – for example as a fall-back option in the event of POS terminal disruptions. The study, in which over 1,000 retailers participated, shows that cash is still the most widely accepted means of payment for point-of-sale transactions, at 97% (see Figure 1). Debit card payments are the next most popular payment method, with acceptance standing at 87%. There are substantial differences between individual sectors, however. Acceptance of cash and debit cards is the highest at petrol stations, large and small retailers, at >=98% and >=92%, respectively. It is the lowest in the entertainment sector, at 93% for cash and 80% for debit cards. A mere 3% of all retailers said they used a debit card-only policy, mostly for efficiency and security reasons."
I'd also note that it was the non-acceptance of cash to which I was objecting, not the ability to use non-cash payment methods. Perhaps that's a difference that's too subtle, but I don't think so.
[0] https://www.dnb.nl/en/general-news/2020/dutch-retailers-cont...
It was a nightmare. Cash was wildly impractical to use. The first hurdle was the inability to buy a bus pass from the machine at the airport with cash. Hell, you couldn't even buy a coffee from a vending machine. With every restaurant I had to check beforehand to see if they would accept cash - and the vast majority didn't. I survived, but I'm glad it was only a day.
I don't care if the stats say only 3% of retailers are cashless - in Delft, at least, if all you have in your pocket is a wad of cash, you are a second class citizen and barely able to function in society. If you don't agree, I suggest you try the experiment yourself :)
I'll take you at your word. I guess it sucks to be you.
I don't agree or disagree. Rather, DeNederlandsche Bank disagrees with your assessment. Take it up with them, I have no skin in that game.
The people who have bad credit scores are the exact same people who cannot, in fact, use cash if they want.
With the much needed reorganization of our society based on our ancestry (who our parents are, where they came from, what they did) and who we choose to be (the genders and politics we identify with), we can better apply the ancestry/gender/political matrix to decide what goods/books/movies/blogs get produced, who produces them, who gets to run companies, who gets to be president or on the supreme court, what gets taught in schools, how money is distributed, who gets what type of health care, who gets to live where, etc.
Technology will be used to help us get to this better and more equitable future more quickly, more efficiently, and most importantly, will make sure economic and political equity is transparently tracked and apportioned appropriately based on each individuals relative needs.
I really do not think that the FAANGers here will create this future, they will simply provide the tools for what is currently happening.
Where is here? If you mean somewhere in the western world: are you willing to bet on it?
Sad: This type of social credit score system seems pervasive and will no doubt be here soon.
Doubly sad: many of the FAANGers here on HN will bring it about.