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Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by transcriptase on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @04:36PM (#32323966)
Question for those familiar with the backend of things like Alexa, Google Home, Siri:

At what point can we say things like “turn off the bedroom light in 5 minutes” or “stop music and turn off all the lights”? Even something like “keep the lights on” in a motion sensor system is impossible it seems. Because to me they feel like low hanging fruit, and yet despite all the advances in machine learning and these systems being around for the better part of a decade, anything but the simplest single-task no-modifier commands result in a “sorry… I didn’t understand that” or completely unpredictable results. Is there something inherently difficult about these types of queries?

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Closi on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @04:58PM (#32324227)
These are all subtly different problems I think, but in general most of these architectures currently assume there is a single intent.

> stop music and turn off all the lights

This is probably the easiest of the bunch because you are asking it to perform two distinct actions.

> turn off the bedroom light in 5 minutes

This is much more complex, because you are asking the application to setup some sort of workflow - after it understands what you want it to do, it then has to work out how to execute that, which will be utilising the device API's / services. This is a simple example, but there are lots of permutations of different actions here, for example you might want to say "turn off the sound system once this song finishes playing" which assumes that the assistant has the capability to then understand you want it to create a task specifically waiting for the trigger of a particular song finishing playing, and that it has the ability to setup that trigger.

> "keep the lights on” in a motion sensor system

Now this is where the orchestration gets tricky -

The assistant has to:

* Work out that the lights are being affected by a motion sensor system, which is likely outside it's own platform.

* Work out that your intent is that you want the assistant to override that.

* Understand how to connect to the platform in order to control it.

* Work out what parameter it is supposed to alter to achieve this task.

* Override the existing users settings, and presumably reinstate the settings after some portion of time.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by omega3 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @06:50PM (#32325282)
> This is much more complex, because you are asking the application to setup some sort of workflow - after it understands what you want it to do, it then has to work out how to execute that, which will be utilising the device API's / services.

I don't see conceptually the difference between the first and the second example. You're still executing two distinct actions, first being the waiting for x amount of time?

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by dietr1ch on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:47PM (#32325821)
The deferred execution makes this more complex as now the yet to be executed part needs to be queued somewhere

It could be issuing a command in the same way you do the first, but probably most lights just support switching them on/off right now, and won't take a delay argument.

So, if you can't just do the same you were doing, how do you do it? If there's some kind of local support, you can issue a delay command to some device in the network that will switch the lights on, but you still need to be able to control that action as the user might want to cancel or adjust the delay too.

If the execution need to happen remotely because there's no local support, then you don't even know that you'll be able to reach the device in 5 minutes (Internet down, router not letting random connections in). And keeping this request queued needs some infra in the server side too together with the necessary APIs to allow adjusting and cancelling requests.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Shorel on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @05:45AM (#32329604)
Just put everything in queues, even immediate things.

The AI feeds the action queues, and another isolated component performs the actions, including delays and follow ups.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by shepherdjerred on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @01:01AM (#32327832)
> If there's some kind of local support, you can issue a delay command to some device in the network that will switch the lights on, but you still need to be able to control that action as the user might want to cancel or adjust the delay too.

I'm pretty sure there is some form of local support, at least for Google. Whne I last used it you had to choose a speaker that automations executed from

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by hmryehbut on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:06PM (#32325978)
So it requires things software engineers do all the time.

Where is the hard part?

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by NLPlatypus on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:37PM (#32326233)
But you can apparently tell it “remember I put my keys upstairs”, and when you ask where your keys are, it tells you upstairs.

There is storage going on already

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by eru on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @10:52PM (#32327093)
> You're still executing two distinct actions, first being the waiting for x amount of time?

It's not a fixed amount of time. What if you rewind in the song a bit to catch something you missed in the lyrics?

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by ajnin on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @05:32AM (#32329509)
It's not distinct, the second action depends on the first one being finished.

I think this highlights that AI assistants are not really "I", they are good at doing fuzzy, hard to specify things like understanding speech, but there must still be an engine behind that interprets the text and transforms it into execution steps, and that must still be done by developers so it will be limited.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by avsteele on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:19PM (#32325558)
notwithstanding voice->text part:

Is it just me or does it seem like these tasks would be not all that hard if you just, you know, programmed them rather than trying to be so fancy with ML?

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by nl on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:08PM (#32325993)
> Is it just me or does it seem like these tasks would be not all that hard if you just, you know, programmed them rather than trying to be so fancy with ML?

That's how you do it at the moment. For example, in Google home you have "Routines"[1] which are a list of sequential actions triggered by a key phrase (or optionally something else).

[1] https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/7029585?

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Closi on Thursday August 04, 2022 @10:54AM (#32343702)
I think the issue is the number of permutations of the tasks.

i.e. you can program the use case "turn off the lights in 5 minutes" but that doesn't cover the use cases of "turn off the lights when i leave the house", "turn off the lights and turn on the tv" or "turn on the lights at 10pm tonight" - and there are so many potential scenarios here that it can quickly scale up.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by visarga on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:12PM (#32324357)
Language models can generate code from text instructions. It just needs a training set to learn the target APIs. I expect in the next couple of years to see automated desktop operation (RPA) from text commands, generalising access over human interfaces.

It's really a shame the good language models are not deployed as voice assistants. It would probably be expensive to offer and they don't have the scale necessary. Just to load one of these models you need a $100K computer.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Closi on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:39PM (#32324598)
It also depends what's the biggest priority - I would assume there is a bigger 'quick win' from becoming more reliable at single-intent actions from a market/customer experience perspective rather than pursuing highly complex multi-intent statements.

>99% of commands will be single intent, and they probably work 80% of the time at the moment, so getting those to 99% will have a much bigger short-term impact than focussing on solving the 1% (with the added benfit that once you have solved the first case of getting single-intent right all the time, solving the second more complex queries will be easier as you will have built a more robust base).

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by petra on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:39PM (#32325725)
I'm curious: what's the leading edge in commercial chatbots?
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by speed_spread on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @10:28PM (#32326943)
Hello, I'm Gretta! I'm here to help. It seems you're looking for information on enterprise chatbots geometry. Answer "yes" to access your account's balance or press # for more options.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by nomel on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:46PM (#32325811)
> turn off the bedroom light in 5 minutes

I can already do something similar with Siri. "Remind me to take out the trash in 5 minutes". Seems odd that "turn off the bedroom light" isn't trivial to support.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by sib on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @07:55PM (#32325876)
The iOS reminders app already has a concept of "remind user <x> at <y> time" so Siri is just creating one of those.

The bedroom light may not have such a structured concept already existing (or may not expose the full-featured API to Siri).

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Gordonjcp on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @03:52AM (#32328820)
If it can turn lights on and off, and separately play some sort of reminder sound after five minutes, then it can turn the lights off after five minutes.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by cypress66 on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @05:05AM (#32329350)
It just pipes the command to the appropriate app/service. That's why it doesn't work. Reminder service supports that, but lights service doesn't.

There is no "general ai" doing stuff in the background.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Gordonjcp on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @10:54AM (#32332588)
The lights service doesn't have to know anything about the reminder service.

The reminder service needs "one line of code (tm)" to go "After five minutes, send <this> to the lights service".

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Closi on Thursday August 04, 2022 @11:03AM (#32343847)
The problem is that there are so many different permutations of this that the reminder service (and every other service) would then need to accomodate for hundreds of other scenarios, such as:

- When I arrive at home, turn on the lights - After five minutes, play this song - Lock the front door at 10pm

And then the reminders service (which is a to-do app!) suddenly becomes 100x more complicated than it was to accoomodate all these strange use-cases that are outside of it's bounded context.

It's easy to implement a single use case, it's practically impossible to manually code every possible use case (which would also probably create a huge amount of tech debt).

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by DangitBobby on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @12:04AM (#32327545)
Google assistant/home supports it. Just tried it.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by wyldfire on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:07PM (#32326439)
> At what point can we say things like “turn off the bedroom light in 5 minutes”

I often get ready to leave the house and say "start the robovac in five minutes" and it just works. The Google home gadget confirms and states that it will start robovac "at $time-of-day". I've not got too many things connected but I assumed that it's generic among those things that can be turned on/off.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by jcoder on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:36PM (#32324577)
It’s sad that the only option is a voice assistant that must learn how to interpret my words through this slow, error-prone process. I would much rather have a pure speech-to-text option where I must learn the exact words to say to get a reliable result.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by saalweachter on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @10:01PM (#32326769)
There was a scifi story where people on a particular space station used a whistle-based UI, where you would whistle a pattern of tones at the computer and it would beep back.

I'd go for one of those.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by trention on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @02:37AM (#32328360)
So, in essence you want a language that will tell the AI what to do? A programming language, if I may say so?

It's almost if that natural language thing is highly ambiguous which is why we needed to create a new grammar to give precise instructions for machine-driven processes.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by jcoder on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @11:13AM (#32332840)
Nope, no AI, no NLP. Being so in love with that stuff is why everything is so disappointing now. I’d like a pure speech to text mode where I must get the syntax correct, or the system rejects the command. Eg I must say “set a four minute timer”, not “timer for four minutes”.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by kupopuffs on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @06:54PM (#32325329)
Yeah. I wouldn't even mind learning weird syntax or grammar, like

Thread.sleep(5 * 60 * 1000); light.off();

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Ros2 on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @11:00PM (#32327145)
This is basically what iOS shortcuts is hoping to be. You can do some simple coding with widgets like that and then you can invoke your shortcut like `hey siri, <shortcut>`.

Avoids reciting the steps you want and gives you reliability, but I suppose requires any 'variables' to be hardcoded (or for you to create multiple instances)

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by jeffbee on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:43PM (#32324647)
My benchmark for Siri will be when it learns to do "Siri, wake me up an hour earlier tomorrow". What it currently does it set a new alarm for 1 hour in the future.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by alphabetting on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:20PM (#32324413)
I have google home and the first one worked. The 2nd did not but I don't think I'd ever say that bc I just have routines where I say "i'm leaving" or "i'm going to bed" and everything shuts off at once.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by shepherdjerred on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @01:02AM (#32327839)
I swear there was a golden age in 2016 where voice assistants were magical and worked very well, and then around 2017/2018 it started to:

* Not recognize my voice/command

* Load infinitely when I give a command

* Do the wrong thing entirely

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by function_seven on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @02:26AM (#32328296)
Or my new favorite (Alexa): “It’s going to be 43° today with clear skies. … By the way, did you know I can tell you about great deals on gifts or everyday items? Just say ‘Alexa, tell me about Prime Savings’. Would you like to hear today’s?”

Me: already down the hall cursing my smart speaker.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by liquidwax on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @04:59PM (#32324239)
My guess is that it's a very different (and difficult) problem to generalize that way. Interpreting intent and taking action are different aspects. Someone needs to write code to call a vendor's API to execute those actions and that's a super specialized action. Next step is probably instruct a CoPilot-like tool to do it.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by csnweb on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:57PM (#32324788)
> turn off the bedroom light in 5 minutes

This actually works already with Siri (and as mentioned in a sibling comment with google Home as well). I just tried that for fun a few days ago and was surprised that it actually worked.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by isatty on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @06:57PM (#32325367)
It didn’t work for me.

“Turn off the lights in 5 minutes did but “turn off the floorstanding lamp in 5 minutes” did not

Honestly that’s more frustrating when it’s not uniform and now I’ve to remember this weird behavior.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by bee_rider on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @09:52PM (#32326718)
I wonder if the problem is that it doesn't understand what "the lights" is? It must depend on how you've tagged these things, right?

In the Phillips* Hue app at least, they have the idea of lights independently, but you can also group them into rooms and stuff like that. So the multiple bulbs in my floor lamp are in a "lamp" grouping but also a "living room" grouping. It all seems quite flexible.

What about something like "all lights" "living room lights" etc etc?

* Or rather, whoever bought that brand from Phillips

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by csnweb on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @05:38AM (#32329552)
Does home have some label for that? Can you say turn of the floorstanding lamp and it works? If so that would indeed be very weird. I have a sleeping room in home and said it should turn of the light in the sleeping room in 5 minutes and it worked. May be it only works with rooms.
Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by Rebelgecko on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @08:02PM (#32325938)
>turn off the bedroom light in 5 minutes

This works for me, except when it mishears what I'm saying as "turn off the light for 5 minutes", which gets a bit annoying

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by amitport on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @01:15AM (#32327898)
These systems have important complexity layers that may not be immediately apparent: latency and edge hardware limits.

Yes, maybe, gpu cluster server can understand you quickly, but taking whatever model you have and getting it to work quickly enough for people not to be upset is a giant problem.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by wetpaws on Wednesday August 03, 2022 @12:23AM (#32327649)
Anecdotal story, if you have a group of lights, you can't just say to alexa "turn lights off", she will keep asking which one you want. I ended up hardcoding "turn lights off" as a routine trigger.

You had one job, Amazon!

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by runnerup on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @04:47PM (#32324107)
Also why doesn’t Siri work at all in Honda Civics and Honda HR-V’s when connected to car play and driving on the highway with no radio playing?

Google assistant works fine, for the most part anyways.

Re:20B-parameter Alexa model sets new marks in few-shot lear... by jeffbee on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @05:42PM (#32324637)
Weird. Works fine in an Insight, which is in all respects a Civic Hybrid.