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Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by ectopod on Thursday July 28, 2022 @03:07PM (#32268816)
> Having more money in your bank than the police believe you should have?

Yes, an "Unexplained Wealth Order" in the UK. If you appear to have too much wealth you can be obliged to explain how you lawfully acquired it on pain of seizure.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by Filligree on Thursday July 28, 2022 @03:09PM (#32268841)
But at least you do get to explain it.
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by tialaramex on Thursday July 28, 2022 @03:50PM (#32269304)
That's correct. Unexplained Wealth Orders target amounts in excess of £50 000 (usually far in excess, they've been used four times so far, with total targets of 143 million pounds).

The UWO must target an individual who is either: Politically exposed (e.g. (ex)leaders and senior officials of a country and their families) or Reasonably Believed to be involved in Serious Crime (e.g. bank robbers) and whose wealth lacks an apparent explanation. If the target either can't or won't explain their wealth it may be seized.

UWOs are supposed to be reformed to make them work even when you've paid lawyers to make the apparent ownership very opaque. Right now if you're benefiting from an opaque "trust" arrangement maybe spanning several countries it may be impossible to show how that wealth is really "yours" legally, without the co-operation you would have been required to show as part of the UWO.

In practice it often happens, as I understand it, that the UWO target decides the best way out is to just hand over the wealth, because the real answer to "Why do you have this wealth?" is "I did a bunch of crimes" and that is a confession of crime, for which you might do prison time, and either they don't trust lawyers or the lawyers they hired couldn't come up with another story that would hold water.

Sadly the current (Tory) and former (Tory, Tory, and Tory back many years now) UK governments have been much better at talking up their commitment to transparency than at actually taking any steps to prevent the UK (and especially London) functioning as a laundromat and dormitory for crooks to wash their dirty money and sleep comfortably knowing the people they stole from can't reach them...

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by kelnos on Thursday July 28, 2022 @04:13PM (#32269550)
Wow, this is pretty dystopian. "You have money that we didn't know about so you have to explain yourself, or we will assume you acquired it illegally and take it from you". That's not due process. That's not innocent until proven guilty. (Yes, I know UK legal standards are different than the US's, but I believe these things to be rights people should universally have.) That's not rule of law; that's rule by thugs.

I guess that's strictly "better" than the nearly-zero-recourse civil forfeiture travesty we have here in the US, but... still not great.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by ClumsyPilot on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:15PM (#32270205)
Suppose you have a $30k salary, and one day $10,000,000 million appears in your bank account. Maybe someone in your town was killed on the same day.

Is it unreasonable that law enforcement asks how did you aquire an amount of money that is greater than you could ever earn in your lifetime?

it's nearly the same mechanism as what was used against alcapone to jail him for inocme tax evasion -> he had access to absurd amount of wealth, and there is no way the could have aquired it legally.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by RajT88 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:30PM (#32270347)
Again - this is not what's happening.

Triggering the investigation is fine and reasonable.

Confiscating the wealth without evidence of a crime is the issue.

Civil Asset Forfeiture in the US is regularly confiscating not tens of millions of dollars, but mere thousands of dollars for the simple reason of it being in cash. And this case is even worse - the cash was not on anyone's person out in public, but in a safe deposit box, not doing anything in particular.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by nicoburns on Thursday July 28, 2022 @07:47PM (#32271449)
I think it's much better than Civil Asset Forfeiture. Civil Asset Forfeiture regularly ends up confiscating money that the owner can readily prove they have via legitimate means. This won't happen here. It's only if you can't come up with a good reason that your money will be confiscated (and that process is happening through a court not just with a random police officer).
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by cout on Friday July 29, 2022 @02:14AM (#32273723)
The issue with CAF is not forfeiture of assets without evidence of a crime; with CAF there is evidence of a crime, but not necessarily evidence that the forfeited asset is related to the crime, with little or difficult legal recourse to recover the assets.

Sometimes the case is never brought to trial [1]; in other cases the owner of the assets is never even charged with a crime [2]. When the forfeiture creates a financial burden [3] or the asset has the potential for depreciation [3], the accused may have even a financial incentive to settle rather than go to trial.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31446215

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8588268

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10365463

[4] https://cre.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/37_2_3_Federal_Fo...

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by fargle on Thursday July 28, 2022 @11:48PM (#32272947)
Suppose you live in a free country where innocence is assumed and guilt must be proven?

I'd much rather live in a place where that dang mobster that "no one can touch" gets a little rich and evades the law (until that day he doesn't), than to live in a dystopian totalitarian mega-state (e.g. China).

> Is it unreasonable that law enforcement asks how did you aquire an amount of money that is greater than you could ever earn in your lifetime?

Yes, very much so. It's very, very, incredibly dangerous to fall into the trap of allowing a system that asks someone to prove their innocence and that is exactly what your question is asking.

> it's nearly the same mechanism as what was used against alcapone to jail him for income (sic) tax evasion

Nearly the same is not the same. In other words, it'd be OK to check that the $10,000,000 dollar bank account owner did pay taxes on it. If not, well, ooof. But also, how do we know he had a $10M bank account in the first place? That info had better be obtained legally too.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by ClumsyPilot on Friday July 29, 2022 @08:28AM (#32276043)
> it'd be OK to check that the $10,000,000 dollar bank account owner did pay taxes on it.

Scenario:

John Doe has 10 million dollars appear in his bank account. No evidence that it was obtained legally and no evidence that any taxes were ever paid.

Option IRS/Alcapone - he goes to jail for Tax evasion

Option 'Unexplained Wealth Order' - UK government seizes assets because they should it could not be obtained legally. He is still free and out and about

If anything the option you are advocating is "worse" as in it is harsher.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by nobody9999 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @11:23PM (#32272808)
>it's nearly the same mechanism as what was used against alcapone to jail him for inocme tax evasion -> he had access to absurd amount of wealth, and there is no way the could have aquired it legally.

Actually, it wasn't that Capone had "an absurd amount of wealth," the amount was irrelevant. Just ask J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller and others who weren't put in jail for being "too wealthy." It was because Capone didn't pay taxes on that income

In fact, the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) treats "illegal" income[0] exactly the same way it treats "legal" income for tax purposes.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_illegal_income_in_...

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by tialaramex on Thursday July 28, 2022 @04:53PM (#32269966)
In what way is this not "Due process" ?

The presumption of innocence does not mean you're entitled to obstruct investigators. "But you haven't proved that I'm guilty" also doesn't work to stop detectives entering your home with a search warrant.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by Phrodo_00 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:18PM (#32270239)
From OPs explaination, if you won't explain how you got the money it'll be forfeited. That's the opposite of presumption of innocence.

I'm ok with having large amounts of cash with no obvious legitimate source triggering an investigation, but that's not what's happening.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by Dylan16807 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @08:02PM (#32271555)
If you target the very wealthy, it's a very tiny burden to make them do paperwork to explain the origin of their money. In a situation like that, you can achieve due process without presumption of innocence.
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by Phrodo_00 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @08:23PM (#32271667)
This can be used for values over £50000, though.
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by Dylan16807 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @08:57PM (#32271893)
That's probably not a great threshold, but for now I'm more worried about where it has been used than where it could theoretically be used.
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by brewdad on Thursday July 28, 2022 @06:13PM (#32270699)
The UK doesn't have a 5th Amendment.
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by Phrodo_00 on Friday July 29, 2022 @08:20PM (#32283152)
Yeah, because they don't really have an actual consolidated constitution, but the presumption of innocence is one of the principles of English Common Law (see Woolmington v DPP), as well as being one of the rights in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

They just sneak past it by not actually sentencing you of a crime.

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by int_19h on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @06:23PM (#32325026)
UK has parliamentary sovereignty, so any presumed common law right only exists until the Parliament passes a bill that effectively nullifies it.
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by potatototoo99 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @04:50PM (#32269939)
Almost every country has some form of this law. Sometimes the money is confiscated, other times it is treated as a taxable event at the highest rate possible, etc.
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by bonaldi on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:27PM (#32270325)
It's not "you have money we didn't know about", it's "you have an amount of money that requires explanation".

It's more like "we see a lot of smoke coming out of your house, satisfy us there isn't a fire or we're coming in with the hoses". Viewing that through the "innocent until proven guilty" lens is like trying to argue the fire crew have to stay outside until they see actual flames

Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by int_19h on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @06:22PM (#32325007)
Re:FBI is hiding details about a raid on Americans’ safe dep... by ozim on Friday July 29, 2022 @01:26AM (#32273446)
IANAL but I think throwing "innocent until proven guilty" around might not be valid outside of criminal justice.