News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday July 22, 2022 @10:46PM (#32199784)
> Like, real Linux, not some weird virtualized or translated environment.

Ah, no. It is very much specifically in a container inside a VM. Now, full credit where it's due: You're unlikely to notice. Performance is good, they've done work integrating it (filesystem integration, forwarding windows to the host display servers through Sommelier). But native it is not.

(Details: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con...)

EDIT: I guess I should mention; this does come up occasionally in ways that can actually matter. IIRC I got bit by the (default?) container setup not allowing you to ptrace, you can't mount filesystems or loop devices (https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con...), and you can't touch the kernel or hardware (https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con... and https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con... ).

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by public_defender on Friday July 22, 2022 @11:12PM (#32199958)
This is correct, but also a lot of these machines can native boot Linux if you enable developer mode. It's not the most frictionless experience in the world, but it can work pretty well.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday July 22, 2022 @11:26PM (#32200038)
Oh sure; x86 Chromebooks that support https://mrchromebox.tech firmware upgrades are actually some of the nicest Linux laptops on the market once they've been unlocked and flashed. I just want to call out that the author is precisely backwards and Crostini is a VM and a container and not bare Linux on hardware.

Edit: There's also Crouton, for an intermediate option that does need developer mode.

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by moondev on Friday July 22, 2022 @11:40PM (#32200107)
laptop runs linux (chromeos) runs a linux vm via kvm (crosvm) running one or many LXD linux containers of user's choice (ubuntu, arch, debian)

You can even run docker/containerd inside the LXD container.

Now the question is has anyone tried running everything above with chromeos flex inside a vm with nested virtualization!

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by robbintt on Saturday July 23, 2022 @03:38AM (#32201247)
I used mrchromebox with a 2018 pixelbook and compiling a kernel has been a serious pain, and I'm just copying others' hard work.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Saturday July 23, 2022 @06:49PM (#32208347)
Did you start with Google's "approved" kernel config and then modify it.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by robbintt on Sunday July 24, 2022 @01:11AM (#32210512)
No, do you have a link to that? I can track back to my other sources and maybe do a better job.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by public_defender on Saturday July 23, 2022 @06:39AM (#32202099)
I didn't know about Mr. Chromebox. Very cool. You can also press CTRL+D at boot when you have dev mode enabled to boot an OS from external storage. This is viable on ARM architectures with, for example, Arch Linux ARM.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by yjftsjthsd-h on Saturday July 23, 2022 @10:38PM (#32209763)
You can, but it's loud, freezes boot for 30s or until you hit the key combo, and if you hit the wrong key it wipes your device. Developer mode is a decent escape hatch but I wouldn't want to use it in "normal" use.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by public_defender on Saturday July 23, 2022 @11:15PM (#32209993)
Yes, this is what I meant by "not the most frictionless experience."

However in my mind it was all paid back to me 100 fold when a customs officer at an international border tried to open my laptop and examine it, but was subjected to the sonic-boom beeping of dev mode boot timeout.

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by rnk on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:48PM (#32257468)
What happened next? Did they say log in? Don't some countries, maybe the us say they will keep your laptop for "study" if you don't log in and let them snoop?
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by anothernewdude on Saturday July 23, 2022 @05:19AM (#32201711)
Sure, but it became a waste of time once they stopped allowing you to upgrade the storage - this used to be the best path to a cheap linux laptop. Not any more.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by yx827ha on Saturday July 23, 2022 @10:41AM (#32203748)
Some devices do have soldered down eMMC storage, but others have M.2 slots for NVMe storage. The later can be easily upgraded. Some of the newer AMD Chromebooks have an eMMC to NVMe bridge in M.2 form factor, so these can be upgraded as well.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by ngcc_hk on Saturday July 23, 2022 @03:41AM (#32201261)
Any guide and which is the better hardware to start and try, especially cheaper but reasonable performance for linux, lisp and chrome browser.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by SahAssar on Saturday July 23, 2022 @06:09AM (#32201950)
Seems like the FAQ makes a distinction between running the default container and running custom containers. From the description it seems like when using the default terminal app it is a container, not a VM, and when running custom containers it is in a VM: https://chromeos.dev/en/linux/linux-on-chromeos-faq#am-i-run...
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by yencabulator on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:50PM (#32270515)
ChromeOS forces an Google-dictated immutable VM image ("termina"). Inside this VM, in LXD containers, you get to run whatever you want. You can have multiple VMs, but they're all the termina image. You can get a shell in the termina VM, but it's pretty pointless, and all useful things are inside the LXD container.

When the hardware supports it (most often true these days), you can run nested virtualization: KVM (inside LXD) inside KVM. That will get you an arbitrary VM image.

They might relax the "Termina VMs only" policy later, but that depends on a bunch more security spending.

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by bla3 on Saturday July 23, 2022 @07:05AM (#32202230)
The tweet says "in a container". It _is_ real Linux in a container. I think the part you quoted is supposed to mean "not WSL".
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by yjftsjthsd-h on Saturday July 23, 2022 @11:28AM (#32204194)
WSL 1 was ABI emulation, which I agree is different. But WSL 2 is Linux in a VM, which is actually one layer less than this, because this is Linux in a container in a VM.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by limeblack on Saturday July 23, 2022 @09:52AM (#32203336)
Audio latency needs to be worked on but other then that virtualization does a pretty good job.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by rvz on Saturday July 23, 2022 @12:38AM (#32200425)
Oh dear, that is even more locked down than many expected and much more distant from the typical Linux distro that the many Linux Desktop fans have been used to.

Either way, it doesn't matter, I'd expect whatever is running in ChromeOS (Linux Kernel) to be replaced by Fuchsia (Zircon kernel) underneath. They will more likely keep the 'ChromeOS' name to limit the confusion and that will be what these devices like that $100 Chromebook will be running in the future.

So it will be even more locked down and tightly controlled.

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by ertian on Saturday July 23, 2022 @05:40AM (#32201802)
> They will more likely keep the 'ChromeOS' name to limit the confusion...

I mean, that would make sense. But being Google, I think they're likely to name it something different that nobody recognizes. And then change that name to something similar enough to ChromeOS to cause confusion, since they're actually separate and incompatible products.

Sigh. Sorry, I used to work for Google, on chat and video chat products.

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by chasil on Saturday July 23, 2022 @12:51AM (#32200492)
Microkernels have always been slower than monolithic kernels, never faster.

There is zero chance that Zircon will be faster than Linux.

The classic example is Mach from CMU:

"When Mach was first being seriously used in the 2.x versions, performance was slower than traditional monolithic operating systems, perhaps as much as 25%... When Mach 3 attempted to move most of the operating system into user-space, the overhead became higher still: benchmarks between Mach and Ultrix on a MIPS R3000 showed a performance hit as great as 67% on some workloads."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by forgotpwd16 on Saturday July 23, 2022 @05:35AM (#32201779)
Also an ancient example. Mach's latest version is ~30 years old (released 1994). See https://fediverse.blog/~/3542/the-three-generations-of-micro... for advancements since then such as an order of magnitude performance improve.
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by yencabulator on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:53PM (#32270544)
seL4 can barely do SMP. Modern hardware is all multicore. seL4 is not a performance winner outside of the embedded space.

https://docs.sel4.systems/projects/sel4/frequently-asked-que...

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by pjmlp on Saturday July 23, 2022 @03:36AM (#32201239)
Stuck in the past?

That is why QNX and INTEGRITY have no sales.

Linux performance is so beyond what everyone else can achieve that is why nowadays we run it virtualized and pack applications into containers.

Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by GoOnThenDoTell on Saturday July 23, 2022 @02:01AM (#32200792)
Apple just colocated the rest of the xnu kernel in the same address space as Mach and it seems to perform ok
Re:Unboxing a $100 Chromebook by ngcc_hk on Saturday July 23, 2022 @02:34AM (#32200943)
Given apple is that true … not x vs y easily. But say like macOS and linux on arm and intel.