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Re:Be careful how you pay the bills by ModernMech on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:48PM (#32168491)
> Why would anyone hire someone just to make sure they stayed busy? That is simply not happening.

I’ll give you an example. My wife worked as an intensive case manager, where the job was ostensibly to help severely ill people manage their lives. Was that her actual job though? No, her actual job was filling out reams of paper work instead of actually helping anyone. That paperwork was sent to the state and the company got paid, with the vast majority of the money going to executives.

What would happen if her job were eliminated? Would the people be worse off? No, the whole point was to not help them and keep the state aid checks coming in. My wife wasn’t using her skills and was depressed and stressed all the time so she’d be better off if that job had never existed. Then there were the 3 layers of middle management coordinating all of the form filling. Their job was wholly redundant, and they didn’t do any meaningful work at all. Did they even need to exist? It’s not clear, but their existence didn’t work toward actually helping any real people. They just helped collect government checks. They were paid well though.

The people who would be harmed the most by that “work” not getting done are the executives.

Re:Be careful how you pay the bills by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:51PM (#32168552)
Ha! I have family members who were the bureaucrats who audited that paperwork your wife sent in. The situation is exactly the same on the government side. Over qualified people doing meaningless paperwork while politically connected upper managers make tons of money joining conference calls from the golf course. It's great at crushing the spirit of anybody who actually wants to accomplish whatever the organization's mission is.

And when the service being provided are also paid for by the government the taxpayers take it on both ends!

Edit: Is my comment unpopular because some people think I'm endorsing the status quo or because some people find this state of affairs inconvenient to their world view?

Re:Be careful how you pay the bills by ModernMech on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:11PM (#32170706)
Lol yeah. The main job of those middle managers seemed to be reviewing reports so they didn’t make it sound like they were driving people anywhere, even though that was half the job. The state side bureaucrats probably did the same thing! So it’s even worse than a useless job, but a useless job done twice!
Re:Be careful how you pay the bills by cortesoft on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:55PM (#32169658)
Ok, I see where the disconnect is. You are talking about work that has no value for ‘real people’, or humanity in general. They aren’t providing a good or service that anyone wants directly.

However, they are clearly providing value to SOMEONE. The person paying your wife gets more value (money) than they pay your wife to do the job. They aren’t trying to keep her busy, they are trying to make money.

You could call this rent seeking, which is a completely fair criticism. It just isn’t the same as ‘make work’ that is simply trying to keep someone busy. They are trying to extract value in a way that is not good for society as a whole.

Re:Be careful how you pay the bills by ModernMech on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:52PM (#32170458)
Right, I would define something like getting an education to be work, because it’s done with the intention of bettering one’s self to better society; while going around and breaking all the windows in town just to be paid to fix them again is not work, even if some individual ends up getting rich in the process. It’s a net loss for the rest of us.

I guess from a physics pov it all depends how you define the boundary of the system, and I draw it at a society level.

Re:Be careful how you pay the bills by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:48PM (#32170403)
I would say it is precisely exactly the same in the vast majority of cases. These jobs exist to help some rich fucks extract even more value from society in a way that benefits them personally at the expense of society. They are worse than useless, they are actively making the world worse.
Re:Be careful how you pay the bills by cortesoft on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:32PM (#32170984)
That isn't the same as "employing someone just to keep them busy", though. They are employing them to make more money; it just so happens that the work they are doing doesn't actually provide value to society.

It might seem like a minor distinction, but I think it matters when trying to understand the motivations involved.