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Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by boppo1 on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:02PM (#32146671)
>It makes no sense. Why is web software so easy to make money in? Why do we value hard engineering so little?

Interest rate intervention (making them lower than equilibrium) changed the DCF valuation that is the fundamental way of evaluating business (i.e. people working together on large endeavors) to one where promising massive returns in the future(20+ years) made low returns in the near term (x<20 years) acceptable. Investment dollars chased growth and VC and PE grew. Meanwhile, in order to compete for capital, all businesses focused on delivering value now had to adjust their income statements (try to grow revenue, or more likely cut expenses) as hard as possible to compete with businesses that aren't delivering on much now but seem like they will change everything in the future.

Google "DCF Valuation" and model out 100 years in excel. Add a row that divides the PV of each year by the NPV so you can see the % it contributes to the NPV. Then setup a bar chart so you can visually get a vibe for the integral of different time periods. Once that is all setup, try a real simple assumption: 0 growth for CF and .5% for your Risk Free Rate. Then try it at 5%.

If the Federal Reserve sticks to its guns and gets rates up, and keeps them there, it will be unsurprising to see "hard" engineering jobs be valuable again, while all the CSS people suddenly can't find two pennies to rub together.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by lamontcg on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:23AM (#32147838)
Same thing could be said in 2007.

All of the goldbug quantity-theory-of-money folks were screaming about Greenspan holding rates artifically low for so long -- both before the tech bubble in 2001 and up until they started to delicately raise rates after 2003.

Once the real crash starts to unfold it may get bad for awhile, but once the Billionaires start getting worried about it they'll hit the monetary gas pedal again. SWEs will mostly weather the storm, and even if it gets bad enough that a lot of them lose their jobs (particularly at the margins), it'll still all come back.

Which is to stay that the Fed will definitely not stick to their guns once something significant pops.

(And your analysis kind of shows that there will be significant pain because everything has been built up around the interest rate environment that we've had post-2009 and trying to create any kind of structural change there will definitely cause a crash -- And the Fed works for the Billionaires so once they start to feel the pain then policy will reverse)

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by boppo1 on Thursday July 21, 2022 @09:02AM (#32178795)
Greenspan is interesting to me because although he seems to have started this whole low-interest paradigm, he was once an ardent supporter of a gold standard in 1967. It's a short paper, worth looking up.

So I wonder, how did he go from "fiat schemes exist only as a means for welfare statists to infringe on property rights" to being in charge of interest rate intervention?

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by imtringued on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:41AM (#32149008)
>significant pain because everything has been built up around the interest rate environment that we've had post-2009

Permanent money is always in disequilibrium. It doesn't build up anything. It is always broken which forces constant interventions to reach equilibrium.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by boppo1 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:22PM (#32171740)
What do you mean by 'permanent money'?
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by golemarms on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:26AM (#32147851)
> If the Federal Reserve sticks to its guns and gets rates up, and keeps them there, it will be unsurprising to see "hard" engineering jobs be valuable again, while all the CSS people suddenly can't find two pennies to rub together.

I was under the impression that "hard" engineering isn't as financially attractive to investors due to the long payoff period as compared to web software. In that case, won't high interest rates actually hurt "hard" engineering due to a greater discount being applied to future cashflows?

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by mjh2539 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @01:32AM (#32147881)
Precisely; electrical engineering as a field requires enormous amounts of capital. Software development also requires capital, but not nearly as much, and the returns are much higher.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by naasking on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:27AM (#32152010)
The iPhone had some pretty huge returns for Apple. Maybe "most" EE doesn't have huge returns, but that's also true of most software.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by _vdpp on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:47PM (#32146963)
I’ve been wondering if SWE pay rates have been artificially high for a while due to easy lending - it will be interesting to see if your prediction comes true. Probably a lot of SW companies out there right now are dependent on discretionary income which puts them at risk in a tough market.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by beezlebroxxxxxx on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:27PM (#32147204)
SWE salaries are also very high because right now it's cheap as hell to run a software company leading to huge returns. Overheads are miniscule. The salaries can take a larger slice of the pie.

A lot of people in the comments are talking about how EE work is comparatively much harder. But that's irrelevant. SWEs simply make businesses more money.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by SoftTalker on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:05AM (#32147415)
But a large number of software businesses are not making any money at all.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by Apocryphon on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:11AM (#32147446)
Which goes back to this subthread’s root post about investors focusing on companies “promising massive returns in the future.”
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by dougmany on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:46AM (#32147640)
Ironically, the 6 hour Fundamentals of Engineering test that I took after earning my EE degree had a section on Discounted Cash Flow. It is funny that you are using it now to explain why taking that has given me no utility so far.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by yobbo on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:08AM (#32149195)
A locked-in user has a long (or very long) economic lifecycle, whereas a widget has a short lifecycle.

"Software engineering" is probably subsidized by borrowed money aimed at growing locked-in userbases and therefore valuations.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by imtringued on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:38AM (#32148981)
>Interest rate intervention (making them lower than equilibrium) changed the DCF valuation that is the fundamental way of evaluating business

According to the Friedman rule the optimal interest rate is 0%.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by Gibbon1 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:46AM (#32149048)
I'll add that to my long list of stuff he didn't understand cause he was a dummy.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by JamesBarney on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @02:29AM (#32148205)
This really seems like a stretch.

I can maybe see how low interest rates could maybe increase software salaries. But I can't see anyway that would depress EE salaries.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by Apocryphon on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:23AM (#32152834)
Not enough hardware startups compared to purely software startups. EE as an industry is not benefiting from low interest rates to the same stratospheric extent as SW has, thus the individual engineers aren’t either.