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Re:Scratch is a big deal by ModernMech on Saturday July 16, 2022 @03:15PM (#32121018)
Scratch is great, but the problem is: where do kids go after scratch? Often they are transitioned directly to professional-grade languages and developer tools, which has the effect of turning what was once fun to something scary and frustrating. Many kids stop their PL development right then and there, writing it off as something “not for me”.

I find this sad, as it means a lot of people who might otherwise benefit from programming in their daily lives never pick it up again. Just as not everyone who can cook needs to be a chef with professional grade equipment to benefit from the activity, not everyone who programs needs to be a software developer with all the incidental complexity that entails.

We start teaching Java to kids as early as 8th/9th grade when the vast majority aren’t ready for it. Even my sophomore students in college regularly struggle with the language.

There’s a huge gap between scratch and Java that is begging to be filled by innovative language design. Or better yet, a language that can a student can stick with from early age all the way through adulthood. Imagine if students who started at 11 actually stuck with it through 18 and beyond, instead of giving up at 13/14. Scratch has a perception problem as being something exclusively for kids; I don’t know how it can shed that reputation.

We need to stop treating early childhood programming education as the first stage of the funnel into corporate tech jobs. Not everyone wants to end up there, and we shouldn’t design their education with that goal in mind. Programming literacy is too important in the 21st century to reserve the skill for would-be devs.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by omnibrain on Saturday July 16, 2022 @03:30PM (#32121154)
PICO-8 could be a next step. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PICO-8 A "real" programming language, but still focused on game making, all wrapped into a neat package.
Re:Scratch is a big deal by bckr on Saturday July 16, 2022 @03:46PM (#32121297)
A few ideas:

* Processing

* Love2D

* Unity / Godot

* Pygame

In the past, Flash filled this niche, I think (although I never programmed in it). Looking at my own list above, and others' responses, I don't think this niche has truly been filled, alas.

Maybe a startup idea?

Re:Scratch is a big deal by timbit42 on Saturday July 16, 2022 @03:45PM (#32121286)
Re:Scratch is a big deal by vincent-manis on Saturday July 16, 2022 @04:13PM (#32121525)
I was planning on providing a pointer to Snap!, so I'm glad timbit did it. Snap! behaves similarly to Scratch, but its underlying language is more powerful (it's essentially a visual Scheme). Were I still teaching university CS, I would be advocating for the use of Snap! in the introductory course.

And yes, I find the exclamation point annoying.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by gnramires on Saturday July 16, 2022 @03:41PM (#32121254)
> Scratch is great, but the problem is: where do kids go after scratch?

Good question, I personally think p5.js is a great option. JS is very flexible, and the live environment (at editor.p5js.org) is I suppose very similar to scratch. Drawing elements like squares and circles is as simple as square(), circle(), etc. (with parameters). It's very easy to share an publish (could be on github[1], or just link directly from the editor!). Highly recommended for beginners and any quick interactive work really.

It would be great to have a community page like Scratch though.

[1] See a little procedural tree: https://gustavo-nramires.github.io/ :)

Re:Scratch is a big deal by bryanbraun on Saturday July 16, 2022 @03:50PM (#32121329)
I wonder if there's a way to smooth out the transition into modding "real" games that teenagers are already playing with their friends. I'll bet it would be pretty motivating to have that kind of power in these online spaces where a bunch of your friends hang out.

Minecraft and Roblox support mods written in Java and Lua respectively but it's a pretty big leap from Scratch to Minecraft mods.

I was recently discovered a dedicated editor for Minecraft modding (https://bridge-core.app) and that seems pretty cool. A lot more could be done in this space though.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by liveoneggs on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:37AM (#32150621)
This happened with my niece. She loved playing with scratch and took classes and then just got dropped at the end when her tutor got a regular job, she asked me how to use python for real and then immediately quit.

She learned scratch and was told it was "coding". This was a massive lie.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by gs17 on Saturday July 16, 2022 @07:46PM (#32122997)
Another student in the lab I'm in has been working on something [0] to bridge between a Snap!-like environment (so, very similar to Scratch) to Python, complete with retaining the concept of sprites having separate code with event handlers and using blocks they'll recognize for sniplets they can drag in to get code that implements the same functionality. I believe it also allows importing of projects made with blocks. It's still very WIP but we're hoping it helps students smooth the transition from blocks.

[0] https://github.com/dragazo/PyBlox

Re:Scratch is a big deal by Wowfunhappy on Saturday July 16, 2022 @03:48PM (#32121311)
> Scratch is great, but the problem is: where do kids go after scratch? Often they are transitioned directly to professional-grade languages and developer tools, which has the effect of turning what was once fun to something scary and frustrating. Many kids stop their PL development right then and there, writing it off as something “not for me”.

I work at a company that runs coding classes for children.

We created https://woofjs.com/ explicitly for the purpose of transitioning students from Scratch to a text based language. It's not perfect, but worth a look!

Re:Scratch is a big deal by TomGullen on Saturday July 16, 2022 @07:28PM (#32122898)
We're trying to solve that problem with Construct 3: https://www.construct.net

We find a lot of schools go straight to python coding after scratch, but our block based system is a powerful and allows students to write their first lines of Javascript inside the blocks themselves - and they can then go all the way to writing full Javascript files inside Construct 3.

There is a big gap here and after speaking to a lot of teachers it's a big problem and we're hoping Construct 3 helps smooth this gap out for both the students and the teachers.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by ModernMech on Saturday July 16, 2022 @08:44PM (#32123319)
This is cool, it reminds me of a program I used to use from Corel called Click n Create. Definitely got me into coding so I like the direction you’re heading!
Re:Scratch is a big deal by HanClinto on Saturday July 16, 2022 @04:05PM (#32121448)
I've been asking myself the same thing recently, and recently ran across LeopardJS -- it's meant to bridge the gap between Scratch and JavaScript, and I think it does a really excellent job of it: https://leopardjs.com/

You can paste a link to a Scratch URL into the page and it automatically translates it to equivalent JavaScript that can then be edited in the browser or downloaded and edited locally. It's got an impressive and intuitive library behind it and I think it's fantastic.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by ebresafegaga on Saturday July 16, 2022 @06:05PM (#32122383)
Re:Scratch is a big deal by capncleaver on Saturday July 16, 2022 @04:16PM (#32121544)
My lad has been learning Python in Replit. It looks like they are trying to introduce community feedback loops.

For making games, Roblox is perhaps a good choice. You can post a modded example game and get your friends playing it very quickly, then iterate rapidly.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by yrandom on Saturday July 16, 2022 @05:18PM (#32122071)
I agree and it's one of the reasons I built https://akedo.app

It's a text based programming platform centred around creating games and can be used from a young age and into adulthood.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by wrycoder on Saturday July 16, 2022 @08:15PM (#32123152)
> Scratch is great, but the problem is: where do kids go after scratch?

Sadly, they often move on to real computing. They are taught how to use Word and Excel.

Re:Scratch is a big deal by jackbravo on Saturday July 16, 2022 @09:19PM (#32123518)
maybe Pharo or Squeak would be better alternatives as a follow up to Scratch?

I think python is also a great candidate.