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Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by hyperman1 on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:07PM (#32057992)
As someone from the EU, with no money or anuthing coming in from the UK, why would I even care about this?

The GDPR has teeth only because the EU is big enough to make companies care. It is a watered down version from some privacy rights compared to the old laws in my country. But the old laws were ignorde by US tech because why wouldn't they.

So as the UK left the EU, they are now a small country in the computer world. I'll ignore its laws just as I ignore Afghan laws requiring women to stay at home or whatever country's laws to forbif gays from existing.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by xdfgh1112 on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:10PM (#32058032)
Yeah, this already happens to some extent with American and Asian sites blocking Europe and the UK because they don't want to deal with GPDR.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by sterlind on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:53PM (#32058612)
If this UK bill passes, I'd simply return HTTP 451 with a note that although the UK is blocked from my site, VPNs are not.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by kmeisthax on Monday July 11, 2022 @01:08PM (#32058789)
Promoting VPN usage could be construed by the UK courts as an attempt to commit subterfuge or dodge jurisdiction. They will not take kindly to this. You really want to make it perfectly clear that you want nothing to do with Britain as long as they have crazy laws on the books.

Related point: if you're intending to get out of GDPR, blocking the EU doesn't really help, because the law applies on the basis of citizenship, not territory. If an EU citizen accesses your website in America, that's still within GDPR scope. If you have EU business assets, ship things to the EU, or have any other ties to the EU, then they still have jurisdiction and you certainly still have to comply with GDPR.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by jacooper on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:46PM (#32060089)
However, the GDPR doesn't really apply if you don't intend to target Europeans(2)

And the GDPR is a way way more sensible law than whatever the UK is trying to do here, nobody will comply and no body will care, its only going to Hurt UK citizens and The UK's economy.

I care about privacy and really like what the EU has passed with the GDPR and DSA, but unfortunately we will have countries that does stupid things like this. Hopefully they aren't that important so no one complies.

2. https://gdpr.eu/companies-outside-of-europe/

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by whakim on Monday July 11, 2022 @03:38PM (#32060755)
> If an EU citizen accesses your website in America, that's still within GDPR scope.

No, that's not correct. You have to be clearly intending to (not just incidentally happening to) offer goods or services to an EU data subject.

> ship things to the EU

This wouldn't be enough to make the GDPR applicable. You'd have to be specifically targeting EU customers in some way, such as allowing users to pay in euros - not just incidentally selling some stuff to folks who live in the EU. Your other examples (such as having EU business assets) hold because they would make you an EU entity.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by tzs on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:42PM (#32061539)
Targeting EU data subjects with goods and services is just one of two ways GDPR asserts extraterritorial jurisdiction.

The other is when you are processing personal data of EU data subjects that is related to "the monitoring of their behaviour as far as their behaviour takes place within the Union".

There's a recital that adds:

> In order to determine whether a processing activity can be considered to monitor the behaviour of data subjects, it should be ascertained whether natural persons are tracked on the internet including potential subsequent use of personal data processing techniques which consist of profiling a natural person, particularly in order to take decisions concerning her or him or for analysing or predicting her or his personal preferences, behaviours and attitudes.

Unlike the recital that explains the goods and services case, which talks about it only applying if you envisage offering goods and services in the Union as opposed to your site merely being accessible from the Union, the monitoring case doesn't seem to have any requirement that you are intending to monitor EU data subjects.

That's pretty broad as written. From what the recital says it even applies if you are gathering data the could be used for profiling even if you are not actually currently profiling.

As noted in the article at gdpr.eu that a parallel commenter cited:

> If your organization uses web tools that allow you to track cookies or the IP addresses of people who visit your website from EU countries, then you fall under the scope of the GDPR. Practically speaking, it’s unclear how strictly this provision will be interpreted or how brazenly it will be enforced. Suppose you run a golf course in Manitoba focused exclusively on your local area, but sometimes people in France stumble across your site. Would you find yourself in the crosshairs of European regulators? It’s not likely. But technically you could be held accountable for tracking these data.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by whakim on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:11PM (#32061921)
> That's pretty broad as written. From what the recital says it even applies if you are gathering data the could be used for profiling even if you are not actually currently profiling.

I'm not aware of legal cases that have specifically hinged on this issue, but Soriano v Forensic News LLC (from 2021) touched on this clause, and seemed to doubt that merely collecting information (e.g., using cookies) without further processing it with the intent to profile would make you subject to the GDPR.

I didn't specifically mention Article 3(2)(b) - the clause you're citing - because the post I was responding to didn't really mention profiling in any way. Still, it's good to note that the legal landscape on this particular point isn't totally clear as far as I'm aware.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by M2Ys4U on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:05PM (#32061087)
>Related point: if you're intending to get out of GDPR, blocking the EU doesn't really help, because the law applies on the basis of citizenship, not territory.

Argh, why won't this misinformation die? You are completely, utterly, 100% wrong.

The GDPR applies if either the data controller is established in the EU or the data subject is physically in the EU.

Article 3 (territorial scope) is incredibly short, read it: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by mitjam on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:10PM (#32061915)
Yes and this may be a UK citizen on a trip to Paris
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by kwhitefoot on Monday July 11, 2022 @01:56PM (#32059428)
> because the law applies on the basis of citizenship,

No it doesn't. depends on location only. A US, or any other, citizen is protected by GDPR when they access the web from within the EU

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by shadowgovt on Monday July 11, 2022 @01:39PM (#32059181)
As an American visiting the UK and the EU, I got to see what the GDPR has done to the online experience over there for the first time.

Wow, does that suck. I see about 20% of the "cookie track consent" popups Stateside that I saw browsing from the EU.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by jacooper on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:47PM (#32060102)
Well that's the websites problem, no body told them to include 50 trackers. And there are many filters to kill cookies banners. Also AFAIK now there is an enforced Reject All button.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by shadowgovt on Monday July 11, 2022 @03:24PM (#32060571)
It's also the user's problem because there aren't websites to go to that aren't showing those banners.

Well, except the big, commonly-used ones where you've already consented (or not). Facebook, for instance. It's like this law was hand-tuned to consolidate users into only visiting a few commonly-accessed sites to save themselves the UX annoyance at the cost of the broader Internet's discoverability.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by jacooper on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:19PM (#32062796)
I don't agree, many websites don't have it. Its a choice that these we sites that they want to still track everyone, and they are paying for it in bad UX.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by shadowgovt on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:22PM (#32062829)
It's the safest choice given the incentives.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by pasc1878 on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:29PM (#32059861)
So you prefer being tracked without you knowing rather than being asked and easily opt out?
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by shadowgovt on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:37PM (#32059965)
Personally, yes. I think most of what the GDPR intended to accomplish could have been accomplished more easily by public education campaigns and broad cultural adoption of no-track plugins. That would have done a lot less damage to the user experience than naively assuming that if one pushed the educational burden onto sites, the sites would cease to do the tracking that triggered the educational burden rather than just bother their users forever with government-mandated information placards.

Especially given that what constituted "tracking" was so broad that a lot of sites took the "better safe than sorry" approach because it was cheaper than a full audit of their tracking and a lawyer to interpret whether, say, Apache logs that show IP address constitute "tracking."

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by hedora on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:40PM (#32059998)
If the article is to be believed, then simply ignoring this law would open your company's leadership up to criminal liability in the UK. This probably doesn't matter too much, assuming they never fly through Heathrow or something.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by jacooper on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:59PM (#32060257)
I mean you can just ban all UK IPs and be done with it.

Its clearly not a sensible law, and blocking users will send a clear message to them that they should complains about it.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by hedora on Thursday July 14, 2022 @05:09PM (#32101499)
According to the article, you'd still need to document the technical process you use to ban the IPs, and also the business processes you haven in place to govern the technical process. That all has to be sent in to the British government with a filing fee, and it's unclear whether even that is enough to appease their regulators or not.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by connordoner on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:43PM (#32062337)
Realistically, are they going to complain? I don’t ever remember a mass revolt over US websites blocking EU users because of GDPR.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by jacooper on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:21PM (#32062823)
The GDPR is a way way more realistic law, there is no comparison here.

Also the EU is a way bigger user base than the UK, and being complaint with the GDPR is actually possible without needing to pay anyone anything.

I think the affect of this law is going to be way bigger than the GDPR.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by odiroot on Monday July 11, 2022 @03:39PM (#32060770)
Imagine if they fly through Stansted. That's a punishment in itself!
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by nbevans on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:49PM (#32058572)
Doesn't matter if they ignore the laws as then they have to pay fines which bolsters the Treasury anyway. It's win-win. That's why the EU itself loves to regulate in this way because dishing out tickets to American big-tech is a big money spinner for a superstate that is fast running out of money. The real problems start when these fines are being seen in the halls of power as disruptive to trade; as then it becomes a bilateral political issue which can of course blow up in a full blown trade spat very quickly.

Also your example of ignoring Afghan laws on women doesn't work. If you tried to setup a business in Afghanistan that was say an online tutoring programme tailored for Aghan women. How quickly do you think your DNS will get pointed to 0.0.0.0 on the Afghan internet? And how quickly will they seek to prosecute you as a director of that business? As a foreigner living abroad, you'll probably be fine but you won't be making money from your target market. So you're finished. The law worked and you didn't ignore it.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by LegitShady on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:13PM (#32058074)
the louder someone tells me in advance they don't care, the more they care about something going on here, and in your case its to talk about the EU and the UK. This was an article about the UK, if you didn't care you didn't need to post here at all, just as people from the US don't need to post to say "I'm from the US, why do I need to care about EU laws?" you don't, but you also don't say anything intelligent about it by saying you live somewhere else.

Posting to say you live somewhere else and don't care about the article doesn't contribute to any intelligent conversation, and usually means you do care about something involved, strongly, but aren't willing to say so.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by hyperman1 on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:42PM (#32058474)
But it does. Laws like this tend to spill over to other countrys, unless the politicians in question have to tiptoe away from the mess they created. So one way to fight this law is to make clear the rest of the world is not going to play along.

So as a person, I of course do care. The UK used to be fairly good concerning human rights, privacy, cooperation, ... This represents another step back. So the best thing to do is ignore this insanity as good as possible.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by LegitShady on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:48PM (#32058556)
the rest of the world is not a monolith, and nobody speaks for the rest of the world in aggregate, so 'making it clear' doesn't matter. They left the EU so they could control their own laws, I don't think someone from the EU being childish about "I live in the EU, I don't care" about UK law makes a persuasive statement about politics.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by anigbrowl on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:56PM (#32058646)
So as the UK left the EU, they are now a small country in the computer world. I'll ignore its laws

Laws like this tend to spill over to other countrys, unless the politicians in question have to tiptoe away from the mess

Pick a lane.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by jacooper on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:51PM (#32060138)
These are different things.

You can ignore its laws by blocking users, and clearly saying you won't comply with such stupid laws.

Being concerned that this can spread to other countries is a big reason why you have to be clear about not playing along.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by noduerme on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:30PM (#32058324)
Here's something novel, then: I've lived all over the world, but I wouldn't step foot in post-Brexit, xenophobic Britain if you paid me. I'm reading this gleefully thinking of ways to flout whatever implementation is settled upon, while homegrown British companies rot. I am, in fact, rooting for your economy to utterly collapse.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by timellis-smith on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:57PM (#32058660)
Out of interest, have you seen the list of potential future PMs. I would say it is far more diverse and less xenophobic than most European countries.

But yeah believe what makes you happy. Just don't let the hate get to you to much.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by timthorn on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:21PM (#32059739)
At least one of whom has stated that the bill in question would not be taken forward under her leadership.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by weq on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:04AM (#32065483)
AS an australian, i am sick to death of dealing with the legacy of the UK and wish nothing more then this to come true. Unfortunately, the UK is the worlds offshore banker, makers of the tax haven scam. Thats how they maintain their power post colonialism.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by aembleton on Monday July 11, 2022 @03:17PM (#32060482)
Which of the candidates aren't British?
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by mixtur2021 on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:46PM (#32058527)
In perception polls on xenophobia across Europe, UK scores very well. Here is a report from the EU from 2019:

https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-20...

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by LegitShady on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:35PM (#32058400)
As I said, its not that you don't care, its that you care very very strongly, but wanted to pretend you didn't care, which was why you posted to say 'but I don't live in the UK' as if it was relevant to anyone but you.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by anigbrowl on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:56PM (#32058652)
You're responding to two different people as if they were the same person.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by LegitShady on Monday July 11, 2022 @01:17PM (#32058887)
didn't notice, but again, same thing with both of them. "Here are some laws in the UK" - they respond with "let me tell you about the UK, I don't care about it but here are the reasons why I care..."
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by yrgulation on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:14PM (#32058077)
> So as the UK left the EU, they are now a small country in the computer world.

Umm yeah no. Perhaps regulation wise but no, the uk is not a “small” country in the “computer world”.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by 9dev on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:23PM (#32058219)
What else would it be? There's about 67 million people living in the UK, compared to the 447 million in the EU - depends on your definition of "small", but our company will likewise ignore any specific UK regulations. The handful of customers there isn't worth any additional overhead compared to the EU+US.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by theptip on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:32PM (#32058356)
Of the countries in the world, the UK ranks sixth in GDP.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by cge on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:01PM (#32059486)
The problem with that measurement is that top GDPs fall off quickly. While the UK is the sixth, it's only around 3-4% of the global GDP, and while I can't find values from the same year at the moment, likely has a lower GDP than California. The EU is around 18% of the global GDP; the US, China, and EU together make up around 65% of global GDP, and each of them has at least triple the GDP of any other individual country.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by 9dev on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:01PM (#32061026)
Most of that money is bound in the financial industry, though. Unless you're in the sector, the GDP rank doesn't matter much for doing business with the UK.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by weq on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:06AM (#32065497)
The UK exists right now as a shell company City of London who are the tax havean bankers of the world. The UK knows your financial secrets, and thats how they keep themselves relevant.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by nsteel on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:29PM (#32058313)
Perhaps we should be counting computers, rather than people, in the "computer world". Although I am not saying you'd come to a different conclusion.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by TheSpiceIsLife on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:30PM (#32058331)
A quick search suggests the UK digital market was nearly $50 billion on 2021.[1]

1. https://www.statista.com/topics/7208/digital-economy-in-the-...

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by tomjen3 on Monday July 11, 2022 @12:40PM (#32058460)
It has fewer people than Germany, and only low double digits compared to the EU.

With this legalization I would IP ban the UK, then grow the service and look into opening up for the UK when my service was big and the lawyers didn't matter.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by yrgulation on Monday July 11, 2022 @01:20PM (#32058936)
Typing this using a british designed arm cpu powered phone using the protocol made by a british guy on a forum cofounded by a british american venture capitalist. But the UK is “small” in the “computer world”. Perhaps we should ban german IP instead so we can read less about german nationalist pride and instead focus more on what makes countries competitive and what not in modern tech.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by swores on Monday July 11, 2022 @03:23PM (#32060564)
I think (as a Brit myself) you're being overly defensive and inferring insult where there was none.

Suggesting that the market size of the UK might not be big enough to make up for the costs of complying with a law like this is not at all the same as saying that people from the UK are not capable of making using industry contributions.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by yrgulation on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:05PM (#32061082)
You are right i am overly defensive.

The term small used by op can also be read as a pejorative term meant to describe uk’s would be weakness post brexit - often used by a small but vocal number of eu citizens that like myself (a uk person as well) have been against brexit. And i’ve it read as such.

The uk market may be small in size in comparison with the whole of the eu, but the uk is by no means a small player in the “computer world”, whatever that means.

Indeed due to its size it may not hold much legal clout over the eu, and the eu being protectionist as it is it might even seek to punish british isps or web companies by the excuse of having different laws. Thats not in anyone’s interest and it reflects poorly on the eu and on those people here proposing a ban on uk ips because of some silly laws. I despise the mindset of those who only seek “sanctions” and “punishment” instead of actual solutions and are constantly spewing nationalist nonsense as if, say, germany isnt full of crap and a root cause of quite some major issues on the continent right now.

So yeah I am pretty much bored by all this nonsense. How can we fix the issues that such legislation is causing? Before the righteous ban our ips - not that we’d lose much.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by 9dev on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:08PM (#32063343)
That is all well and relatable, yet those „silly laws“ you mention explicitly state that I am committing a crime in the UK, while my business is perfectly legal in most other countries. They even mention these laws being enforced extraterritorially, which I’m sure they’re not going to be able to do, but I’d like to go on vacation in London some time again, so there’s that. Effectively, my choice is to skip on the few potential customers the UK has to offer, or risk legal trouble. I’m not sure why anyone would risk that for the comparatively small market of your country: Banning British IPs seems to be a valid, cheap, and low-risk solution to overreaching legislation from a single, unstable government.

That isn’t righteousness, it’s simply taking the most logical step to protect myself and my company.

Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by tomjen3 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:12PM (#32072937)
I am not pretending that Britain hadn’t done interesting and important things in the past. I am saying that only a small number of people live in the U.K. jurisdiction and so it is worth a comparative amount of admin.
Re:Your compliance obligations under the UK’s Online Safety ... by donkarma on Monday July 11, 2022 @03:19PM (#32060513)
yeah that's all good for you but it doesn't change the fact that the UK is not that big of a market to cause all this trouble