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Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by aNoob7000 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:22AM (#31919149)
A developer leaving the company is not responsible for a successful handover or that the documentation is correct.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by tablespoon on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @11:30AM (#31921570)
> A developer leaving the company is not responsible for a successful handover or that the documentation is correct.

But if the handover was unsuccessful, it can call into question the skills of that developer. I mean, instead of being a "10x" developer, maybe they were actually a 1x developer that look a lot of shortcuts and wrote unmaintainable spaghetti code (or somewhere in between). Maybe they were someone who hoarded domain knowledge and refused to share it. In any case, the employer didn't realize the claimed value of that employee's work.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by AtlasBarfed on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:06PM (#31922098)
No it doesn't, it calls into question how much redundant knowledge, code quality, documentation, and support the org values.

Which 90% of the time for anything but features and UI appearance is no value.

That allows the construction of micro-empires and dependence. Orgs either recognize that and provide resources, or they rely on shorter-term one man hero efficiencies, and pay the piper later.

They paid the piper later.

And who knows what "19" means. 19 offshores, so that's more like 6x the cost? And offshores are probably short term so they assume they'll hire one or two offshores long term which will ... maybe ... eventually get cheaper.

That's the beancounter logic. So they think long term they saved money.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @10:54AM (#31977692)
Exactly. I was working 100 hour weeks, almost all spent writing code and given no time for documentation, knowledge transfer, etc.. They bet the house on me and wouldn't pay me appropriately.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by ellisv on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:06PM (#31922091)
> A developer leaving the company is not responsible for a successful handover or that the documentation is correct.

It is a mutual responsibility. More often then not I've found that my manager, coworkers, etc. didn't ask any questions about my work during my notice period.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by TheCraiggers on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:44AM (#31919361)
> A developer leaving the company is not responsible ... that the documentation is correct.

I completely disagree. Documentation, however it exists, should always be correct. Whether you document by flowchart, code comments, self-reading code, or some other means, I always maintain that it should be updated as you update the code itself. Just like tests. If you only update it when you need to use it, you're missing the point of it.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by tluyben2 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:49AM (#31919427)
If you get paid and if there is space to do that. There is often the ‘yeah yeah let’s add the rest of the features first the do docs’. I agree with you but this often goes wrong, especially at startups.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by dustymcp on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @11:09AM (#31921268)
adding docs meanwhile isnt always working either as the feature product might change heavily, this is a hard discipline since you need to balance when to doc what.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by jumpman500 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:25AM (#31920583)
A company should demand the documentation they need to understand things when the feature is under-development or shortly afterwards.

Documentation takes time. It's their fault for cutting corners and pushing out a product/service that's undocumented spaghetti code.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @11:01AM (#31977778)
They never asked for documentation and instead pushed for more development faster.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by BolexNOLA on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:54AM (#31919474)
I don’t think he is saying that a developer is in no way responsible for documentation, that is a pretty uncharitable interpretation of the comment.

I think they’re saying it is not up to the developer to make sure it happening writ large/that there is a system in place. That’s pretty much why we have managers and processes in place that everyone follows beforehand (ideally). If a company doesn’t implement systems, it’s not really up to me to do it. Often I will because it makes my life easier and I’m not a rigid “not my department” personality, but I’m not going to feel personally responsible when they drop the ball and wanted to plow ahead without putting the systems in place upfront. Especially because this often happens despite folks bringing up the need in the first place.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by ElectricalUnion on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:27PM (#31922366)
> self-reading code

I always strive to make my code simple and readable, but there's a saying that "one person organization is another hot mess".

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by icedchai on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @11:40AM (#31921715)
Right or wrong, docs and tests are often given the lowest priority. Everything is good in moderation: you want some docs (especially for external APIs), some tests (integration > unit in many cases), but don't go overboard. You don't need 1000 unit tests for a little CRUD app. Documentation is subject to drift. For internal APIs, you're better off looking at the code.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @11:02AM (#31977782)
It was a bank with high security, so the code actually had 100% coverage in tests.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @10:58AM (#31977731)
I was working 100 hour weeks and not given any time for documentation or knowledge transfer. The code was certainly self-reading but it was a very complex system, especially security wise as it was a bank. Their other developers were juniors and couldn't understand it so they threw it out and started from scratch.

I quit with no notice because I was burnt out and promised a vacation when the product launched. They renegged after denying me a raise multiple times. So I left.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by Joeri on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:25PM (#31922346)
I am of the opinion that a developer should always act like a professional, with the best interests of their employer in mind, and that this means doing their best to assure a smooth handover until their very last day of work.

After their last day, if they were fired, all bets are off.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by ratww on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @02:54PM (#31924258)
> I am of the opinion that a developer should always act like a professional, with the best interests of their employer in mind

Sorry but bets are also off once an employer gives them the middle finger, like in this case.

If someone is admittedly trying to pay you only the minimal amount possible, it is completely reasonable that you also work the minimal amount not to be fired or sued.

It goes both ways.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by gsibble on Monday July 04, 2022 @11:03AM (#31977796)
They refused me a raise on multiple occassions, worked me for 100 hours a week for 3 months straight, promised me three weeks off when the product launched, which they then renegged on. I quit with no notice to save my mental and physical health which had severely deteriorated.
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by BlargMcLarg on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:36PM (#31922494)
So until that day, you basically accept fate if you are put in a bad situation and search around for a better job, should you get baited into taking a bad job.

Surely I don't need to tell you why many people opt for a day-by-day basis instead. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by mrguyorama on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:27PM (#31924642)
A developer should ABSOLUTELY be responsible for ensuring something they have built is adequately documented to continue functioning despite being run over by a bus
Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by szszrk on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:49AM (#31944637)
I want to agree with you, but actually can't. He should not be responsible. Because he already failed - he should have had that under control while he was working on it, from the very first day. Not on his notice period.

We push a mentality of devops and the whole team (regardless of their position) being responsible for the final product. Push interdisciplinary attitude, where fine defined borders of each team/job fade. That developer IS responsible for that and if it's not covered by the time of his notice period it means both him and his management failed in some extent.

Re:Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their produ... by afpx on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:24AM (#31919770)
thank you