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Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by bell-cot on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:02AM (#31916661)
I get the feeling that generating (say) 10% more power by adding these fancy bits of optics to a set of solar cells would cost far more than (getting the same improvement by) installing 10% more optics-free solar cells.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by jillesvangurp on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:42AM (#31917481)
It's the right mindset. Cheap panels that can be mass manufactured and installed in places where there is plenty of room to do that are a great way to delivering lots of power cheaply.

The economic efficiency of the panels is function of how many square meters they take, how expensive those square meters are, how costly it is to maintain and service the setup, how long they last, and how expensive it is to buy and install them, etc. It's not just about the watt/square meter.

Less moving parts means less complexity, less things that can break, and overall lower cost. 10% more power at 2x the cost is a net negative.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by Retric on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @06:39AM (#31918421)
In terms of total kWh per year cheap panels win. In terms of the value per year morning and evening power is becoming increasingly valuable due to the duck curve. Tracking solar panels still aren’t viable, but large instillations will sometimes aim a percentage of panels to the east or west to shift power at the cost of total kWh per year maximize value produced.

So, 20% more cost for 10% more power could be worth it even outside of space constrained applications.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by scblock on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:45PM (#31922617)
I'm not sure I understand your statement that tracking solar panels aren't viable. The vast majority of utility scale solar PV installations in the United States use single axis tracking systems. These orient the modules on a north south axis, which then tilts from east to west throughout the day. Energy capture over an equivalent optimized fixed-tilt system is significant. The land area required is larger, however.

Most smaller or behind the meter systems such as carports or rooftop mount solar use fixed tilt, and fixed tilt is also used in certain types of terrain or where costs for tracking are prohibitive.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by Retric on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:49PM (#31923480)
Yes single axis tracking are common, but dual axis racking isn’t.

Horizontal Single-Axis Solar Tracker’s are normally aligned north south, but shifting slightly off axis from pure north vs south can increase output in the morning or evening.

Tilted Single-Axis Solar Tracker’s are closer to the performance of dual Axis trackers, but have a similar question do you pick a tilt angle to maximize annual, summer, or winter output.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by ZeroGravitas on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:52AM (#31929788)
The duck curve is heavily misunderstood.

The repositioning of panels to capture more morning and evening light is a real thing. At the theoretical extreme it can make the PV output a square wave.

But, that actually makes the duck curve worse, since the duck curve is about the gradient of that switchover.

But the duck curve has never really been an actual problem so it's kind of academic. And if it was we have solutions to it.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by Retric on Thursday June 30, 2022 @09:44AM (#31932251)
The gradient is one issue, the other is sending wholesale prices to zero for extended periods most days. That messes with the economy of baseline power generation especially nuclear.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by ZeroGravitas on Thursday June 30, 2022 @12:27PM (#31934890)
Yes, I suppose cheap energy can be seen as a problem if you're an energy seller, not a buyer or user.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by Retric on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:55PM (#31936084)
Buyers will eventually face a related issue.

To simplify if nuclear/geothermal or whatever was 10c/kWh if sold 24/7 but if wholesale prices are 1c for 8 hours a day then base load generation needs to make up 8x9c = 72c over the other 16 hours. Now prices would hypothetically jump from 10c for those 16 hours to 14.5c for those 16 hours.

It should still be a net savings for the average consumer, but if your business model is based on cheap electricity at 10am to 4am that might flip to 10am to 4pm.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by hedora on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:13AM (#31920390)
Cheap panels’ output drops as temperature goes up.

I hadn’t thought of it until just now, but that should flatten the duck curve.

Another way to flatten the duck curve is to buy smaller inverters and more panels.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by smolder on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @04:07AM (#31917599)
There are probably applications where 10% more power at 2x the cost make sense, like on a satellite or a solar powered aircraft, maybe.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by gumby on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:36AM (#31920740)
Indeed, though there are other places of the design space to look. For example in satellites, triple junction cells (generating power from additional parts of the spectrum) are worth the much higher cost as they weigh the same as standard cells, thus generating more power without increasing launch cost.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by andrewflnr on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @04:30AM (#31917713)
How much more mass, though? Mass is likely to be at a premium anywhere you can't just also slap down a few more cheap cells, e.g. where there's not much space.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by smolder on Thursday June 30, 2022 @12:50PM (#31935228)
Good points by you and your sibling poster. Maybe this tech really would have a hard time finding a niche when considering mass along with cost/performance characteristics, given other premium or economic options. Maybe on the roof of an expensive high rise it would make sense? On boats? Hard to say.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by mort96 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:24AM (#31920553)
If this reasoning was correct, the same would surely apply to tracking solar panels, no? Yet tracking solar panels are all over the place.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by buro9 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:44AM (#31917499)
As an idea, if a ship were to be electric with battery + solar as the energy source... the ship would be space constrained and obtaining more power with reduced mechanical complexity may be worth it in such industrial settings.

Unsure if this is what they're going for, but my initial question to myself was "Where does this make sense?" for the same reason you've highlighted.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by KleerKut on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:22AM (#31917392)
Agreed. Unless you have serious space constraints, more cheap panels which last decades is far cheaper and less maintenance than any solar concentrators or solar tracking that will fail long before the panels. I could see those technologies being useful on a trailer for generating power in remote locations, but not for the typical home or solar farm. I'd imagine those lenses would amplify the shading caused by typical dirt and debris, requiring more labor costs.

The other thing is that solar concentrators burn the cells out quicker, it isn't magic free energy. Spending a significant amount more money just to squeeze out more power from the cells doesn't make sense for all applications.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by hedora on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:30AM (#31920638)
There is (was?) a company that made terra cotta tile shaped concentrators that were laid on top of solar panels. They claimed this used something like 30% less PV panels for the same output, and that, because the panels were shielded from UV / precipitation, increased the usable lifespan by a decade or so.

I think they went under back when Tesla was false-advertising their roof prices to suppress competition in the market, but I’d love to be proven wrong.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by dotancohen on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:23AM (#31919753)

  > solar concentrators burn the cells out quicker
Do you have a source that I could reference for that? Thank you.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by KleerKut on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:33PM (#31925977)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell#Disposal

Concentrators are actively trying to put more of the suns energy (an thus UV degradation) on the cells than can be achieved by simply aiming the cell at the sun. It greatly depends on the type of cell being used, with many technologies having a shorter lifespan than polycrystalline and monocrystalline cells, but they don't last forever out in the sun. A panel boxed up in a warehouse isn't likely to have discernible cell degradation in 10 years. A panel flat on a roof having off-axis light will degrade more, one on a solar tracker will degrade more still, with the benefit of more power per unit time during that shortened lifespan. Add in concentrators and it will degrade more still. Much like anything else. I'm getting no sun indoors, get more standing in my yard, get even more standing near water where it reflects back at me and get sunburn (degradation) quicker in that environment.

Obviously it makes sense to aim the panels at the sun, and having a method to seasonally adjust the tilt can be done for very cheap. It can be made to last the life of the panels without repair, and it isn't an outrageous loss of performance if it was forgotten for a few weeks. Active sun trackers can potentially cost more than the panel itself, even more so when factoring in installation and setup. If it fails aiming to one extreme, there will be a substantial loss in power even compared to a panel with a fixed mount. That failure is likely to happen more than a couple times in the life of the panel, unless you replace parts before failure (even more cost), or add concentrators (more cost) to increase output and decrease panel life (more cost yet again). Unless there is a specific reason for all of that cost and complexity, such as space constraints or other factors, then it is cheaper to just lay out more panels. If a new technology comes out where they can stop UV degradation without a large impact on power output, or weight, or cost, then I'll be interested. For my use case I'd rather reduce my energy usage and lay panels in the sun with seasonal cleaning and adjustment.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by dotancohen on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:25AM (#31929242)
Thank you very much.

I also opted to just add more panels. There is a finite amount of sunlight hitting my roof, the only advantage to tilting the panels are easier cleaning and passage. If I could tilt a single large panel at x degrees then I could absorb cos(x) more sunlight but the thing would stand up above my roof to a height of sin(x)*roofLength and would blow over in the wind.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by h0l0cube on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @02:51AM (#31917245)
> 10% more power by adding these fancy bits of optics to a set of solar cells would cost far more than (getting the same improvement by) installing 10% more optics-free solar cells

Surely if you're comparing against fixed solar panels, then it would be more than 10%? For tracked solar panels, costlier installation and maintenance would be traded off with efficiency of the prismatic optics and degradation of materials. Economies of scale might favor the optics if it's cheap enough to manufacture (less components, cheap materials etc.)

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by bell-cot on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:18AM (#31917370)
If the new optics give X% more power, they compete against "just buy X% more solar panels". (My original "(say)", in front of the "10%", was meant to indicate that the number was arbitrary.)

> Economies of scale might favor the optics if it's cheap enough...

- Quite true. But note that the article describes the inventor of the new optical system as "assistant professor in astronautics and spacecraft engineering". That certainly suggests cost-insensitive, performance-critical applications - such as cubesats.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by h0l0cube on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:19AM (#31917962)
You're probably right. Given they seem to be using glass, I'd say it's both too heavy for space (?), and too costly for earth. I guess I'm hoping they take this technique to cheaper easier materials so I can slap this on top of a van and get decent power in a variety of different conditions.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by adrianN on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:45AM (#31918101)
It might be interesting for rooftop solar where space is limited and installation costs make up a large part of the expense.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by k_sze on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @06:38AM (#31918417)
It’s likely going to make your roof much heavier though, being made of glass. And that’s usually a bad thing.

So unless they find a different lighter material with which they can create the same kind of lens, it probably won’t be suitable for many kinds of roofs.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by edent on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:28AM (#31919820)
I don't know where you live, or what your roofs are made of. But the 1.6m x 1m panels we have weigh only 20KG.

That's much lighter than the tiles they replaced.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by benj111 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:52AM (#31919449)
Wouldn't the voids allow active cooling / water heating at the same time?

If so that certainly increases the utility in a domestic setting at least.

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by 35mm on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @04:38AM (#31917758)
Agreed. People somehow miss this point when discussing space based solar arrays that beam power back to Earth.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by mayama on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:22AM (#31919743)
Is beaming power through atmosphere even feasible? If it is feasible, why aren't we beaming power at least across sea like Mediterranean for example, where laying cable will be expensive. I always thought space beaming power is just science fiction thing.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by saltcured on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:48PM (#31924888)
I think the atmospheric attenuation problems for a horizontal path are much worse than vertical, not to mention the horizon which would mean many relay stations along a surface path to bend the beam along the curved surface.

However, a bigger problem or question to me is what wavelengths can carry useful amounts of energy and be kept in a narrow beam to have high transmission and conversion efficiency from source to collector. Everything from microwaves up to visible light is going to be quite susceptible to atmospheric moisture. Even microwave and infrared communication links can suffer with rain, clouds, or fog.

If you can get down to radio frequencies, I don't know whether a narrow beam is really possible. I've seen some hints at the development of rasers (coherent, stimluated emission like lasers and masers but down into "radio" frequencies). But I am not a physicist and do not really understand how such an emission would behave. Could a useful amount of energy be targeted on a "small" receiving antenna without leaking out to other accidental recipients...?

Also, for power levels useful to the utility grid, any beam alignment or scattering errors would mean extremely lethal and destructive energy going off-target. Straight down from space, you might delineate a concentric safety exclusion zone around and above a ground station. If beaming horizontally, wouldn't you have to exclude a large wedge of ground and a huge conical section of airspace both before and after the ground site?

Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:44AM (#31920855)
From what I can tell, space solar power would be competitive in those places where the alternative is to fly in fuel for generators. For example military forward operating bases, isolated Northern communities, et cetera.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by politician on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:32AM (#31919864)
Straight down from space is more feasible than through the atmosphere over the horizon.
Re:New concentrator could help solar panels capture more sun... by simonebrunozzi on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:31AM (#31917433)
Always been the main problem with concentrated solar.