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Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by hef19898 on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @02:15AM (#31904666)
The author lost me at tge first paragraph: he never read it, and still he wonders why, in medieval fanatsy setting, there are no pump guns.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @02:35AM (#31904795)
So why are there no pump guns?

Indeed, considering Tolkien's otherwise fully-defined universe (and the industrialisation in Mordor indicating that it can be done), it's a fun question, and they rather use the question as as springboard into quite a ranging discussion of the factors behind real Industrial Revolution rather than a comic-book-guy-style tear-down of LoTR specifically.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by hef19898 on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @04:01AM (#31905301)
Because during the time of the musket there were no pump guns neither.

EDIT: It took quite some time between the early days of the industrial revolution and the first semi-automatic guns. Ignoring LOTR for a minute, if in story taking place in the 17th century the question of "why didn't X use a colt .45" is easily answered, because it wasn't invented yet.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:38AM (#31906435)
If we aren't going to "yes, and..."[1] our way into the actual topic at hand, consider that since they don't have the same standardised inches, even if they did had exactly a Colt .45", they wouldn't call it that, no more then we would call it a Colt .14T (where T is a Gondorian Royal Thumb).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes,_and...

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by HelloNurse on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @05:58AM (#31905935)
But many parties are sparsely but explicitly described as making and using fantastically advanced marvels of somewhat magical technology in ancient times, some of which are still around like Sauron's Rings.

Probably the most honest reason to not have guns in Middle-Earth is that only stupid orcs, not the elves and dwarves who could easily develop them as school projects, would be interested in such tasteless weapons.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by p_l on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @09:28AM (#31907423)
Easily accessible guns require tools that were absent, like screw making machines etc.

There were weapons, powerful weapons at that, but they depended heavily on artisanal production even if certain groups managed to reach manufacturing scale.

Also, Middle Earth is still licking wounds from the great wars with Melkor, which took away most of the advanced regions, and what Gondor and Arnor tried to rebuild got heavily whacked down by wars.

Random subsistence farmers spread across small hamlets do not make for industrial base, whereas Saruman and Sauron could use force to speedrun the development to provide resources for their forces (as both had knowledge of how to do it, even if we only take into account their experiences during wars of Beleriand - meanwhile the wizards other than Saruman stick to their oath of non-interference)

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by HelloNurse on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @04:43AM (#31917789)
Saruman and Sauron are the only ones who seem interested in industrialization and in mass production for masses of orcs.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by p_l on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:11AM (#31917918)
Sauron was never bound by the oaths Istari took, and Saruman broke his, and those involved not intervening too much. Most of the time, Gandalf & other Wizards were running around trying to keep things together so that societies could rebuild.

The remaining higher technology groups either lost the capability (Gondor), were destroyed (Arnor), are fighting constant war with Orcs with occasional dragon making problems that prevents building up proper industry (Dwarves), or are depopulated depressed groups that while not hoarding, do not interact with others anymore much and mostly use what remains of their industrial base to facilitate the last days of their race (Elves outside of Mirkwood - those in turn are trying but don't have much to build upon since Moria got overrun and they lost their main trading partner for technology).

The rest is down to subsistence farming levels without base of previous knowledge to rebuild or at least inspire.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:50AM (#31906514)
I don't think all the Kingdoms of Men would have turned their noses up at a few cartloads of nice Dwarven culverin, regardless of what the Dwarves themselves (or those snooty elves) thought of them.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by wetpaws on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @02:50AM (#31904883)
If you read Tolkien notes, industrialisation and Mordor as a industrial empire was seriously considered as a major plot at some point.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by matkoniecz on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:33AM (#31906821)
Mordor (and Isengard) are actually depicted as industrial complexes of the worst kind (including lack of effectiveness)
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by hef19898 on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @04:22AM (#31905441)
>> was seriously considered as a major plot at some point

So the very out-of-universe answer is: Because Tolkien decided against it. So the better question, and also the one we can use some source material to answer, would be why Tolkien decided against it and wrote a classic fantasy story.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:10AM (#31906656)
Because he was a Professor of Anglo-Saxon and not a historian of the 18th/19th centuries.

There's no Industrial Revolution in Anglo-Saxon mythology. Including it would have jarred in a dyschronistic way.

More than that, fantasy is based on nostalgia for heroic simplicity and straightforwardness, with a dash of magic to instil some child-like wonder.

The Industrial Revolution operated on a completely different narrative and moral basis. It was more about colonisation at home, using mechanisation to organise forced labour.

It's hard to be a brave Romantic hero in that kind of setting.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by naniwaduni on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:14AM (#31906292)
Well, I wouldn't say he decided to write it classic.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by FeepingCreature on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @02:56AM (#31904929)
Haven't read the notes, but shouldn't Mordor, being an autocracy without a recognizeable middle class and a very lean political system focused on war, have very cheap labor?
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by samus on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @04:05AM (#31905320)
Very cheap, but probably also quite unsophisticated. They can make basic stuff, but they also don't need to produce finer things. The Orcs make up for it with their numbers, and Sauron cares about power, not about wealth.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by FeepingCreature on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:41AM (#31906889)
Right but I mean, that's not exactly the right conditions for industrialization. Who designs and builds the machines? Who does the research? Sauron solo?
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by p_l on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @09:37AM (#31907511)
Yes - Sauron is one of the remarkably few people in Middle-Earth who have not lost knowledge over time - the others are majorly proscribed from such actions (Wizards, including Saruman before he turned), or crushed into depression by what they lived through - depopulated Lindon where small remnants mostly builds ships for further movement west, the small settlement of Rivendell which doesn't have enough resources to spend on industrialization, the elves of lothlorien are in similar condition to Lindon, Arnor is so ruined that AFAIK there are no more cities that aren't ruins, and Dwarves are too harassed to expand much, though they have major win at Lone Mountain (but haven't recovered Moria).

Generally in the Middle-Earth, the parts we see, are post-apocalyptic environment constantly wrecked by wars and depopulated so hard most people are too busy raising crops to survive.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by matkoniecz on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:34AM (#31906823)
> have very cheap labor

It has that, given that almost everyone is enslaved.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by Maursault on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @03:56AM (#31905277)
If we took a walk through the author's home, I am certain we would find every piece of furniture was assembled without reading the instructions. Without bothering with the source material, the blogger has wrapped themselves in Tolkien's world and just wants to play.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by baud147258 on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:48AM (#31906508)
> in _medieval_ fanatsy setting, there are no pump guns

well, if there was pump guns, it wouldn't be a medieval setting anymore, as you need some industrial base to manufacture them, industrial base which isn't exactly compatible with a medieval setting. Not to say you can't have guns in fantasy (Pillars of Eternity and Warhammer fantasy come to mind), but they are usually more primitive.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by thehappypm on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @10:38AM (#31908258)
I kind of agree, it doesn’t really make sense to read a critique of a book series, by someone who has not read said book series..