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Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by tragomaskhalos on Monday June 20, 2022 @06:15AM (#31808482)
That's not a bad trade-off to be fair. In the UK tickets (at least inter-city) are also brutally expensive but the system is, to put it kindly, often flakey.
Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by vladharbuz on Monday June 20, 2022 @06:32AM (#31808593)
As someone who has lived long-term in both countries, I think that while the Swiss system is absolutely better than the UK system, people in the UK are a bit _too_ self-deprecating about the UK rail system, which is, all things considered, relatively good. Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey.
Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by iggldiggl on Monday June 20, 2022 @08:20AM (#31809447)
> Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey.

Despite some shortcomings in that area, at least in the UK they did keep a common ticketing system with through-ticketing (and integral passenger rights for the whole of your journey) between operators even through the whole of the privatisation saga. In Germany they've mostly ignored that topic and we're mostly only saved by the fact most long distance trains are still operated by DB, and for international journeys it's equally bad, with often no through-tickets available.

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by vladharbuz on Monday June 20, 2022 @06:51PM (#31817244)
I have to admit I don't fully understand the issue you're talking about, but I'd like to find out more. Could you give an example? I've booked trains entirely via DB from Basel Bad Bf to Copenhagen, for example, but perhaps you mean something else?
Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by bobthepanda on Monday June 20, 2022 @07:30PM (#31817639)
I think they mean if you wanted to book a multi-leg trip of which only one leg is DB operated, it's a mess to coordinate and buy for different operators.

(I have no experience with this, but that's my interpretation of the comment.)

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by iggldiggl on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @05:22AM (#31821973)
Some examples:

- Cologne – Bruxelles is served by both DB and Thalys. In principle both operators run in alternating hours and taken together you get an hourly service [1] between the two cities. Unfortunately for quite a few years now, Thalys has withdrawn its through-ticketing arrangements and so you can no longer buy through-tickets involving Thalys and a connection on the German side. If you buy the tickets separately, you've got no guarantees that your ticket will remain valid in case of a missed connection. (Thalys still participates in Railteam and HOTNAT, but that only applies to connection between high-speed long-distance trains, so if your connection involves some other kind of train, too bad).

- It also means (apart from the fact that Thalys requires mandatory reservations) they're semi-useless for domestic journeys (beyond Cologne, Thalys trains usually continue through to Dortmund), because in the case of delays or cancellations your ticket won't be valid on alternative DB services. If you're lucky they'll take you on a goodwill basis, otherwise you'd have to either wait for the next Thalys (only every two hours and with some larger gaps!) or pay for a DB ticket out of your own pocket and claim the money back afterwards.

- The services between Paris and Germany via the LGV Est are operated in cooperation between SNCF and DB, so luckily both operators will sell tickets for all services on that line, no matter whether they're TGV or ICE services. It's still not perfect however, because (at least online?) DB won't sell tickets involving a connection in France, while SNCF won't sell tickets involving a connection in Germany. So if you don't live in one of the larger cities directly served by the through trains (I live near that line in Germany, but technically I first still need to take a local train first for three stops or so) and need to go somewhere in France other than Strasbourg or Paris, you still can't get a through ticket.

- Through tickets to Italy are equally problematic. Maybe things are slightly better at a booking office, but at least online playing around with international-bahn.de it looks like the above, i.e. DB/ÖBB won't sell tickets involving connections in Italy and vice versa for FS.

- international-bahn.de is happy to sell you combined tickets, but its FAQs also say that those don't necessarily count as a through ticket and in the case of missed connections you might have to depend on the goodwill of the operators involved.

- For a few years now it seems that there is at least the so called Agreement on Journey Continuation (see https://www.seat61.com/european-train-travel.htm#AJC), which is at least a step in the right direction and is better than nothing, but that agreement is

a) still somewhat obscure, and

b) effectively still a somewhat more formalised goodwill arrangement, with the exact details and regulations not (!) being made public and remaining a secret among the participating railways

c) also doesn't cover all operators, e.g. Thalys doesn't participate, and neither do some of the large open access operators that exist in e.g. Italy, Austria, or the Czech Republic

And like I mentioned previously, in Germany technically the law asks all railways to work together in creating fares for through-ticketing (§12 AEG), but especially as far as long distance trains are concerned this obligation seems to have been mostly forgotten.

[1] Albeit with some gaps, especially on Thalys's side. I don't know whether those gaps are a recent, Covid-induced phenomenon, or have been present for a while longer.

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by vladharbuz on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @11:54AM (#31825383)
Thank you for the detailed comment! I can say I've had good experiences on connections between Germany and Denmark, Germany and Switzerland, and Germany and the Netherlands, including regarding missed connections, but it sounds like the situation isn't so great when it comes to other countries/operators.
Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by martinald on Monday June 20, 2022 @07:33AM (#31809050)
Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by vladharbuz on Monday June 20, 2022 @06:53PM (#31817262)
How did I miss this? Thank you for linking it, I'm very curious how things will turn out!
Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by CaptainZapp on Monday June 20, 2022 @07:08AM (#31808863)
> which is, all things considered, relatively good

It really depends on the line and the company. Virgin from London to Manchester is a reasonably good experience. Anything Northern (as a for example) makes me fume when I even think of taking any of their trains.

Also, prices for spontaneous bookings are outrageous. Even compared to Switzerland.

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by midasuni on Monday June 20, 2022 @06:26AM (#31808558)
I had a delay repay for the first time in years a few weeks ago - someone threw themselves under a train at Milton Keynes just before my train was due to leave Euston.

I don’t consider £25 each way Manchester-London to be brutally expensive to be honest - http://brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=371&tkt...

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by gmac on Monday June 20, 2022 @07:41AM (#31809109)
> I don’t consider £25 each way Manchester-London to be brutally expensive to be honest

I think you're citing pretty much a best case there. I just put in the same journey on a morning next week and got £150 each way, which I suspect is still not the worst case.

Before the pandemic, my wife used to pay about £5K/year for a London - Brighton season ticket (a distance of about 50 miles).

Possibly the most infuriating thing is that it's highly unpredictable what's cheap and what's expensive, and long journeys can often be several times the cost of flying. From a social-welfare/cost-of-carbon and oil-crisis perspective, this is nuts, especially when you compare what Germany is doing[1].

[1] https://e360.yale.edu/digest/germany-slashes-summer-train-fa...

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by iso1631 on Monday June 20, 2022 @09:31AM (#31810145)
£25 each way is a walk up fare, you just need to take the slightly slower train (which is still faster than the car and about the same speed it was in the 90s), arriving in London about 1030.

Peak time commuting tickets are likewise a bargain. Brighton-London for £5,300 5 times a day 50 weeks a year at 65 miles each way is 32,500 miles, or 16p per mile. For a car doing 45mpg that will cost you £6,300 in fuel alone, let alone parking, depreciation, wear and tear, etc.

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by ClumsyPilot on Monday June 20, 2022 @10:42AM (#31810916)
The car will carry 4 people and luggage. So if you consider car pooling, or you need to be in office 3 times a week, it's not a good deal. Or your car is electric. Even for a couple, a car makes economic sence.

Also consider comfort - have you see how crowded those trains get, sometimes you might have to stand for hours on a long distance train. If you are able bodied man thats one thing, but if you are pregnant or injured, that's tought.

They are not suppose to be close.

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by iso1631 on Monday June 20, 2022 @12:55PM (#31812615)
Sure, you could spend 3-4 hours driving from Brighton to central London and paying £65 to do it.

It doesn't come close with season tickets, hence the reason so many people chose to commute by train rather than driving. Also why people take the train rather than commuter bus services which tend to be cheaper

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by Zenst on Monday June 20, 2022 @06:37AM (#31808629)
Shows as £46.70, which still isn't bad, though off-peak is often less painful. If you have to use the train to commute to work, then things start raking up.

I live 15 miles outside London and 17 years ago was paying best part of £2k a year just to get into central london and back, today it would be the best part of £3k a year to make that same journey. Using the same tracks, (probably trains) and stations all those years ago. Though more people than back then, which was already at levels upon peak work commutes that saw you playing sardines.

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by iso1631 on Monday June 20, 2022 @09:36AM (#31810191)
Nobody should be commuting from Manchester to London. That's £46.70 return, so £23.35 each way, arriving in London about 1030.

Peak time london commuting is the most expensive part of the network to deliver, as it requires increased amount of capital that's mostly idle, yet peak time commuters get massive discounts compared with occasional use. Compare Reading to London. A season ticket works out to be about £22 return for 5 days a week, a normal peak time ticket is £52.10.

Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by CaptainZapp on Monday June 20, 2022 @07:11AM (#31808884)
That almost gets you one year of travel in 2nd class throughout the entire Swiss train network (including public transport in cities).
Re:The integrated timetable of Switzerland by midasuni on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @05:14PM (#31829182)
Switzerland has a population of less than london. £3k would get you transport throughout london too - rail and bus.