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Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by snowwrestler on Saturday June 18, 2022 @10:20AM (#31790030)
It seems obvious that we have no more leisure time now than before.

But consider the huge leisure industries that have grown over the past 100 years. Movies, TV, now streaming services. Radio and now Spotify and podcasts. Video games. Sports and all the media around sports. Even social media is arguably mostly entertainment these days.

Or look at active leisure. How many more cyclists and rock climbers are there today vs 100 years ago? Or skiers or runners or hikers?

Judging by the shape of the economy, there is a lot more leisure time than before. As a whole, Americans spend a lot less time growing food and making clothes and, well, surviving in general, and a lot more time doing the things above. But Americans also spend a lot more time making the things we fill our leisure time with.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by earth_walker on Saturday June 18, 2022 @11:44AM (#31790888)
What is leisure anyway? Is it just an easy work/not-work split? I'm not sure it's so easy anymore when so much of our off-work activity is either stress-inducing or basically working for free. Sure, we're not darning socks anymore, but consider this:

Is managing one's 'personal brand' on the many social media sites leisure time?

If you're doing mundane activities that generates value for a social media company, is it leisure time? For example vetting, posting and re-posting ad copy is basically a low-level marketing job, yet a large percentage of the population say that they spend hours a day doing this.

What percentage of our 'leisure time' is spent watching or listening to ads? Is that truly leisure?

I guess the argument goes that we choose if and when to do these things - I wonder how much people really feel like they have a choice in the matter anymore.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by mattkrause on Saturday June 18, 2022 @12:41PM (#31791463)
Cooking is another good example of how hard it is to separate work and leisure.

Everyone needs to eat, so getting/preparing food is work in some sense. There’s a hobby/leisure component too though: you definitely don’t need to spend two hours every day cooking a perfect coq au vin or visiting farm stands to find the tastiest, most interesting produce. On the gripping hand, doing the absolute bare minimum (Soylent or pot noodles or whatever) might be okay for a little while, but many people don’t find it physically or mentally sufficient for the long term either.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by em500 on Saturday June 18, 2022 @11:34AM (#31790773)
I think it's broadly true that people have a lot more leisure time that they think. The Bureau of Labor Statistics has surveys on how Americans spend their time[1]. Across the entire population, people spend 3.61 hours per day on Work and work-related activities, vs 5.19 hours per day on Leisure and sports.

If that seems a bit off, consider that a lot of people barely work at all (especially those under 25 and over 65), and those that have full time employment usually only work 5 days per week, which lowers the average hours per day considerably. So throughout an entire lifetime, I think it's true that Americans spend a lot more time on leisure and sport than on work. It just doesn't feel that way, especially when you're in prime working age.

But even full time employed parents (probably the group that perceives themselves most time starved) still spend 2.95 (mothers) to 3.52 (fathers) hours per day on Leisure and sports[2].

[1] https://www.bls.gov/tus/#tables

[2] https://www.bls.gov/tus/tables/a6-1317.htm

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by snowwrestler on Saturday June 18, 2022 @03:54PM (#31793206)
This is such a useful comment, especially about ages.

I would bet a higher percentage of people under 21 today are still in school, vs 100 years ago. School is not leisure time, but comes with leisure time.

And on the old end, Social Security and Medicare are probably allowing a higher percentage of people over 65 to enjoy a full retirement, vs 100 years ago.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by bombcar on Saturday June 18, 2022 @11:16AM (#31790572)
A huge part of it is now everything's outsourced - dual income families are the norm now, and the housework still has to be done. That alone would count for a large amount of lost leisure.

You also have commutes going from walking to driving - and the first may feel leisurely but the second rarely does.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by onesafari on Saturday June 18, 2022 @11:44AM (#31790880)
It's funny seeing so many people who spend hours every day on social media or Netflix or Steam claim that they have no time. We can see the data on how many hours are being consumed.

What explains that?

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by chongli on Saturday June 18, 2022 @01:47PM (#31792073)
There is a big philosophical debate about the definitions of labour, idleness, and leisure [1]. While that debate is far from settled, I think we can agree that there is a difference between sitting around watching TV or playing video games and learning to sculpt or play the violin. I think we might also agree that this difference is deeper than its relationship to social class, though that may be a part of it.

So what is it? I think these sorts of “idle activities” like TV and games carry with them a burden of guilt that our time could be better spent pursuing a hobby or otherwise learning something which might enrich our lives beyond the mere time we spend doing the activity.

So why do we spend all this time on idleness instead of hobby, sport, music, or other “higher leisure” activities (folk dancing?)? I think, and it’s been argued quite effectively, that work has become all-consuming in our lives even if it hasn’t taken all of our time. For many of us now, work is a mentally rather than physically taxing task. We get home from work (or log off the computer and walk out of the home office) but our minds are still at work. We think about the problems we’re trying to solve outside of work hours. Many of us are also on-call to deal with any crisis affecting the business, even after work hours or on the weekends.

We never get off work! And that’s why we have no time for leisure. Any time we have outside of active work we spend on idle activities like TV or video games so that we can drown out our chattering minds. Pursuing a quiet activity like reading or woodworking is just too difficult if we’re still thinking about work (or worse, worrying about being on-call).

[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/work-labor/

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by mirrorlake on Saturday June 18, 2022 @01:09PM (#31791745)
My armchair hypothesis is that using your phone, internet, or TV lacks sensory novelty--you frequently sit in the same place, doing the same thing.

It's a repeated stimuli, which causes your brain to filter a lot of it and discard it, leading to the feeling like a night watching TV was a night doing nothing. Your memory of watching TV blends with all memories of you watching TV, especially after a few days have passed.

You have to switch up your routine and do something new or otherwise different, and you will retain a memory of that event much more clearly and it will feel like you "did something".

My most clear memory of a night in the past week was game night where we played a physical card game. I don't remember any individual night where we watched TV.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by onesafari on Saturday June 18, 2022 @01:49PM (#31792091)
That makes sense and could explain a lot of it. The time spent is essentially compressed in memory making it seem smaller than it is.
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by gadflyinyoureye on Saturday June 18, 2022 @12:26PM (#31791325)
I think part of it is burn out. I have been getting more and more so the past few months. As a result I stopped pursing an AWS cert. The thought of opening my Ancient Greek textbooks brings no joy. As a result I play Skyrim.

Saying “I don’t have the time” means “I don’t have the will.”

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by granshaw on Saturday June 18, 2022 @01:20PM (#31791841)
In many cases, modern work responsibilities and expectations. Creative/office work is more ambiguous and takes an outsized mental toll compared to physical work. These people need to veg out basically and can only do completely passive leisure activities.

There was an NPR “wait wait don’t tell me” episode question a couple of years back that went “most respondents in the survey said they don’t have the energy after work to do _______” what?

The answer: “anything”

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by watwut on Saturday June 18, 2022 @01:23PM (#31791870)
1.) The "it is the same people" thing is your guess, something you want to be true. It is not something born of facts. There are people who play games 30 hours a week ... and then there are people who never play them. And this is the most important point here.

2.) Specifically with Netflix, people watch Netflix while doing other things or when when they are already tired. I turn on tv or listen podcasts when cooking or cleaning or am doing other boring activities. Or when watching small children.

3.) For many people, these are evening activities and activities they use to relax - when they are actually tired. When I watch netflix or turn on game, typically it is in the evening when I am tired. I cant code, I cant read something educational or difficult, my brain is tired.

4.) There are some people who spend a lot of time on Netflix who also say they dont have time. These people pretty often are trying to say polite "no" to whatever you want them. They are trying to reject you without making you feel bad.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by colinmhayes on Saturday June 18, 2022 @04:17PM (#31793434)
> people watch Netflix while doing other things or when when they are already tired. I turn on tv or listen podcasts when cooking or cleaning or am doing other boring activities

You don't think this counts as leisure time? Cooking while listening to music or a podcast is much more enjoyable than doing it in silence.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by watwut on Sunday June 19, 2022 @02:11AM (#31796599)
If you watch while cooking or cleaning, then your "I don't have a time" is still quite true and non-puzzling. You are doing work that needs to be done, just in slightly more pleasant way.
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by sdeframond on Saturday June 18, 2022 @10:56AM (#31790345)
> Judging by the shape of the economy, there is a lot more leisure time than before.

I'd argue that the size of the leisure economy and the amount of leisure time are only very loosely correlated.

For example, if I meditate for 1 hour it is leisure time with no direct economic impact.

One the other hand, one could argue that the more leisure time we have, the more we will spend in leisure related equipment, culture etc.

However, one might also argue that leisure related spending correlates with disposable income, not leisure time.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by mlom on Saturday June 18, 2022 @11:23AM (#31790643)
it's not leisure if you don't like it. slavery in entertainment is still slavery.
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by wutbrodo on Saturday June 18, 2022 @12:37PM (#31791429)
Can you expand on the slavery analogy? I'm aware that this is the naive perspective, but when I realized I was watching more TV than I liked, I stopped, and there was no overseer to whip, mutilate, or starve me into resuming.

That isn't to say that it's trivial: I had to identify why I was doing it (I don't even like watching TV!), and then work on myself so that I had the mental energy to replace it with activities I find rewarding, like reading in the park or playing music.

But this sounds more like "making your leisure time fulfilling is a life skill and a mental health challenge", not "leisure time doesn't exist because we're forced to use it on certain things".

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by mlom on Sunday June 19, 2022 @11:49AM (#31800437)
it's not a fucking analogy, if I don't pay rent I get thrown out on the street, or resort to prostitution (would you call that spending free time in the entertainment biz? fuck you), that's slavery, i'm not fucking worried about watching TV, truly the least of my problems. wake the fuck up
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by wutbrodo on Sunday June 19, 2022 @12:44PM (#31800949)
Consider working on both your writing clarity and reading comprehension. "It's not leisure if you don't like it" and "Slavery in entertainment" are easily interpretable as claiming that the entertainment itself is slavery, not the incoherent claim that we're enslaved by the need to work and also entertainment exists. And my comment is quite clearly addressing the latter claim.

Of course, I'd work on your emotional stability first. Seriously, man: wild-eyed cursing at internet strangers for imaginary statements they didn't make is the modern equivalent of getting into a screaming match with the voices in your head. I truly wish you all the best.

Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by mlom on Sunday June 19, 2022 @02:28PM (#31801962)
i'd work on shutting the fuck up, because your speech reflects your underlying assumptions and if you don't address them soon someone like me will address them for you, slaver
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by wutbrodo on Sunday June 19, 2022 @06:59PM (#31804341)
I hope you get the help that you need : (
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by mlom on Monday June 20, 2022 @06:42PM (#31817174)
fuck you, fascist
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by scollet on Sunday June 19, 2022 @03:38AM (#31797118)
If you have to work to live, you are a slave.
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by wutbrodo on Sunday June 19, 2022 @12:46PM (#31800965)
I evidently misinterpreted GP's incoherent comment as claiming that we were enslaved by the entertainment itself, as some commentary about the inescapable addiction of modern media.
Re:Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess l... by mlom on Sunday June 19, 2022 @02:29PM (#31801976)
no, it means being forced to produce entertainment for others to live is slavery, and a very degrading form of slavery. work on your own fucking reading comprehension.