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Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by dhon_ on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @07:45AM (#31580506)
This reminds me of the method of calculating Fourier transform by refracting light through a prism and reading off the different frequencies. You get the "calculation" for free.
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by Enginerrrd on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:58AM (#31581149)
Analog computers are pretty awesome!

Say you take a standard slide rule with two log scales, and want to do a division problem, x/y. There's more than one way to do it. I can think of at least 3. One of them won't just compute x/y for your particular x, but will compute x/y for ANY x.

Accuracy is always the issue with analog stuff, but they sure are neat.

Another fun one to contemplate is spaghetti sort. With an analog computer of sufficient resolution, you can sort n elements in O(n). You represent the numbers being sorted by lengths of spaghetti. Then you put them on the table straight up and bring a flat object down until it hits the first and largest piece of spaghetti. You set that down and repeat the process, selecting the largest element of the set every time.

I've always liked the idea of hybrid systems. I envision one where you feed the analog part of your problem with a DAC, then get a really close answer up to the limit of your precision from the analog component, then pass that back out to an ADC and you have a very very close guess to feed into a digital algorithm to clean up the precision a bit. I bet you could absolutely fly through matrix multiplication that way. You could also take the analog output and adjust the scale so it's where it needs to be on the ambiguous parts, then feed it back into your analog computer again to refine your results.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by hbarka on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:51AM (#31582627)
Where does a doctor’s stethoscope fit in? Other examples: Mechanic’s stethoscope for diagnosing an engine, airplane vibrations to foretell maintenance, bump oscillations to grade quality of a roadway.
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by TedDoesntTalk on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:45AM (#31581723)
> spaghetti sort

Isn’t this how very old sorting machines with punch cards worked? I’m thinking of the kinds used by the census or voting machines in the late 1800s or early 1900s.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by TremendousJudge on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:33AM (#31582342)
I think they used radix sort, which is also pretty cool
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by ulnarkressty on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:03PM (#31586515)
An even better one - holding an image at the focal point of a lens produces its Fourier transform at the focal point on the other side of the lens[0]. It is used for "analog" pattern matching[1]. There is an interesting video explaining this on the Huygen Optics Youtube channel[2].

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_optics

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_correlator

[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9FZ4igNxNA

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by dhon_ on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:42PM (#31590675)
Fascinating, thank you for sharing!
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by teshier-A on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:22AM (#31581437)
Surprised to see no mention of LightOn and its Optical Processing Unit !
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by nurettin on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:24AM (#31580806)
This is solarpunk material.
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by sshlocalhost98 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @02:14AM (#31591947)
This is such an interesting way of computation. I watched analog way of computing neural networks by veritasium.
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by SilasX on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @11:12AM (#31583009)
Like how mirrors "compute" the (appropriately defined) reverse of an image?
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by alliao on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:53PM (#31587943)
oh god, I can see it coming. elaborated analogue music player for a special price. it's using nothing but light. the fuzzy output will be it's feature; sought after by misdirected audiophiles...
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by stackbutterflow on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:55AM (#31581127)
Is it calculation or simulation?
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by Banana699 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:10AM (#31582033)
Not much difference here, Calculation (or, more generally, Computation) is the manipulation of abstract symbols according to pure rules that may or may not represent concrete entities, e.g. the simplification of polynomials according to the rule of adding like powers.

Simulation is when we manipulate things (concrete or abstract) according to the rules that govern other concrete things, e.g. pushing around balls in circles to (highly inaccurately) represent the orbit of planets around a star.

Not all calculation is simulation, and not all simulation is calculation, but there exists an intersection of both.

The key trick you can do with that last category is that when the physical system you're simulating is controllable enough, you can use the correspondence in the other direction: Use the concrete things to simulate the abstract things. It's simulation, because you're manipulating concrete entities according to the rules that govern other entities (who happen to be abstract),but what you're doing also amounts to doing a calculation with those abstract entities.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by V-2 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:29AM (#31581530)
This perspective fits nicely with the simulation theory.

If we accept it, for argument's sake, then what's happening is essentially delegating the computation to the ultra-meta-computer that runs the simulation.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by arrow7000 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:41AM (#31581661)
It also fits nicely with the universe just being mathematically consistent
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by V-2 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:59AM (#31581904)
This misses the "computation" (being shifted from one layer to another) aspect though.

Universe being mathematically consistent and being simulated are completely orthogonal concepts.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by arrow7000 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:08AM (#31582006)
I understood your comment to be an argument in favour of the simulation hypothesis. So my comment says that that doesn't work.

On second reading though it seems like all you're proposing is a mental model for 'analog' computation; that it's like outsourcing the computation to a lower level of hardware. Then yes I agree with that.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by V-2 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @04:53AM (#31592803)
Yeah, I'm not advocating the simulation hypothesis as such : ) I'm only saying it fits here nicely as a thought experiment (that's why I emphasized: "for argument's sake"). Its actual correctness is beyond the point.

As for the validity of simulation hypothesis itself, I'd say it's essentially religion in disguise*. It's unfalsifiable by definition too, and personally I apply Occam's razor on the idea, but obviously I can't disprove it. The question can't be "is it true", but it's fine to ask "is it a useful (or at least thought-provoking) metaphor?" (in a given context).

___

* Most religions, in my view, can be broken down to the sum of: a) simulation hypothesis of sorts (universe run by Creator), b) code of ethics with mnemonic narratives, c) ceremonies, that covers most of it analytically speaking.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by IIAOPSW on Thursday June 02, 2022 @02:45AM (#31592165)
The universe working on a computational principle no more entails it being a simulation than the previous "mechanics" based physics entails it being a machine. Its an unfortunate fact of language and history that it is hard to express the idea of "digital physics" without misleading people into a quasi-scientific secular form of Gnosticism (aka: this is the simulation, the real reality and motivations of the people behind it are hidden from us).
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by andrewflnr on Thursday June 02, 2022 @12:20AM (#31591302)
There is nothing that doesn't fit nicely with simulation theory. It's an epistemological tarpit.
Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by Cipater on Thursday June 02, 2022 @02:35PM (#31598832)
> epistemological tarpit

Google tells me that this phrase has been used twice on the internet, both times by you on HN. I Googled it because I thought it was an interesting expression and wondered whether it was in popular use.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by andrewflnr on Thursday June 02, 2022 @04:08PM (#31599899)
Haha, so I've not succeeded in making it a thing. Very evocative though, isn't it?

Ed: honestly though, it's kind of surprising no one else has independently come up with the same phrase. I know I'm not the only one thinking about things like this.

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by Syzygies on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:11PM (#31584044)
Whether the universe is a simulation is unknowable, but the universe could consist of thought. If so, this research is dangerous; like the Trinity nuclear test, the conflagration could alter our neighborhood of the universe.

I had a pretty convincing revelation last night that the simulation was run by insects. I could only get back to sleep by ridiculing myself for such a derivative thought. Or is there a reason it's universal?

Re:Physicists are building neural networks out of vibrations... by schmeckleberg on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:31PM (#31586116)
I think Diaspora by Greg Egan covers some of this territory

...that or the much older idea that if the whole universe is the dream of a dragon (or a butterfly or Chuang Chou) then let's not do anything that's too startling or implausible so we don't wake them up and end it all!