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Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by TheSpiceIsLife on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @10:42PM (#31577434)
One might even imagine someone would write something like this in an effort to reinforce the parents the point.

The strongest interpretation of "we'd love to release the full schematics" the subtext: but we can't / don't want to due to "reasons*, none of which are likely to satisfy everyone, so we'll try to avoid that discussion as it would help distract us all rather than getting on with our goals.

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by tyrfing on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:04AM (#31578674)
The strongest and most likely interpretation is that they simply don't own the IP, and it's based on a licensed reference design. It makes zero sense for a startup like this to have done all of it from scratch - just copy everything possible and innovate the actually interesting parts. If they don't own the design, they can't say that due to NDAs, and the best they can do is a maximally broad interpretation of "repair shop".
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by moring on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:32AM (#31578848)
IMHO, the best they can do is being honest about what they can't say due to an NDA. For example, if they can't say that they don't own the design, they might say "due to an NDA we cannot say who owns the design". This goes a long way to earn trust.
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by rasz on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @05:04AM (#31579605)
They already claim to fully own the design.

>Our main manufacturing partner is Compal, who makes laptops for many other large US notebook makers.

>Apart from off the shelf modules like the SSD, RAM, WiFi, and LCD, the Framework Laptop is entirely custom to us, and we own all of the design and tooling.

If you locate Acer Swift 3 SF313-53 diagram it will be 90% same thing, just shuffled around with different mechanical design.

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:54AM (#31581108)
They might be owning the design itself, but I can easily imagine that the NDAs required to get access to specifications and design guidelines for parts like the CPU, GPU and other chipsets include a provision that no material must be released that allows others to clean-room reverse-engineer the protected material.
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:34AM (#31579471)
I don't know about these things a great deal, but it would seem reasonable to me that an NDA might include limiting what you can say about the NDA?
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by jimnotgym on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:31AM (#31579455)
It depends if the NDA allows them to discuss it at all!
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @05:23AM (#31579700)
These has to be a limit to this madness, can I get an NDA that does not let you state your name to anyone
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by vel0city on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:47PM (#31586328)
There are limits to contracts in the law. There would have to be some form of consideration to that contract. If you gave me a million dollars a year but I just can't use my current legal name in casual conversation, I'd take that contract. If you just wrote a contract that said "you can't use your name, you get nothing" its an unenforceable contract under US (and most of the developed world's) contract laws under the principle of consideration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consideration

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by nousermane on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:35AM (#31580035)
I wish "innovative, actually interesting parts" would include delivering an actually repair-friendly laptop - that is - one with full schematics; only ICs that are normally in-stock on digi-key/mouser; no soldered-down components made of melty plastic, especially not next to places that are likely to be reworked; soldermask that doesn't obscure traces; all important signals brought to accessible probe points; mechanical design/connectors/cabling allowing for easy power-on outside of chassis, etc...

Sure, QR stickers and a bunch of new/incompatible iteration of good old ExpressCard are nice to have, thank you, but that doesn't make all that big of a difference to repairability.

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by rcoder on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:03PM (#31583911)
This sounds like a great set of constraints for an industrial controller, or a custom Cyberdeck-type portable.

I’m confident any device following these guidelines would be DOA in the larger market, though. Even _if_ you could source things like LCD assemblies that fit your criteria, the expected density (high) and labor costs (low) people have for modern electronics don’t leave a lot of room for this kind of bespoke design.

I’m extremely impressed with how far Framework got on the path to “full repairability” using off-the-shelf parts without producing something that looks like a late-90s Thinkpad.

Don’t get me wrong: I love the old IBM, Tadpole, Toshiba, et. al. designs, but I don’t think that many people outside this community would be willing to pay 2-3x as much for something 2-3x larger and heavier and several generation behind in terms of performance. (Not to mention wildly incompatible with any non-hobbyist OS.)

OTOH, what you’re describing does sound a lot like why custom, hand-wired audio amplifier builders do. They manage to make a business out of it, mainly by appealing to folks willing to spend effectively unlimited money to get that “special something”.

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by nousermane on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:38PM (#31587757)
Not sure what you meant by "full repairability", but for component-level system board repair, framework laptop is not far at all from current-gen lenovo or macbook. That's the whole point of OP's video.

User-replaceable RAM, SSD and keyboard are all steps in the right direction, of course. But it would be quite a stretch to give product full marks on repairability based on that alone.

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by jacquesm on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:02AM (#31581207)
And no SMD mounted connectors, only hole through connectors. The problem with that is that it will preclude the use of certain kinds of cables because the whole industry has now pretty much moved to SMD where possible to shave off the last couple of percent cost.
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by nousermane on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:15PM (#31584109)
External connectors are pretty much the only kind of component that is still routinely being used in (full or partial) through-hole form-factor.

Laptop in question does use partial through-hole connectors for all 4 USB-C ports - notice 6 shiny slots around each such port around 0:25 mark in video. Such connectors are actually harder to rework/replace, but also tougher and less likely to require repair in the first place. So overall, well-done here to framework, even if most everybody else is doing that too.

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by stormbrew on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:37PM (#31590319)
honestly with how much heat the ground plane can soak up on modern electronics, desoldering a beefy through hole ground connector is such a pain in the ass I might rather they be SMD if I have to do something with them in general.
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by jacquesm on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:12PM (#31587372)
Yes, but there are plenty of internal connectors as well.
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by somethoughts on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @11:00PM (#31577526)
I feel its likely the marketing verbiage w.r.t. repairability was targeting the average "prosumer level repairability" - which is probably more closer to an iFixit level of repairability (i.e. more on the torx screw and less on the solder/depop spectrum of repair) [1]. That said in response to these HN and Youtube threads - perhaps they could update it to be more specific about their definition of repairability as well as why schematics will be or can't be released. In the future - if Intel is the issue - it might be smart to design some additional modularity and relegate the proprietary Intel stuff to some sort of system on module (like the RPi4 Compute Module) and increase the amount of open source able main board.

[1] https://www.ifixit.com

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by stormbrew on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:37AM (#31578140)
It seems likely that the 'module' would just cover the entire space of the board as-is if they did this with a modern intel system anyways, especially when there's also SODIMM module slots, an m.2 slot, and 4 full tb4 ports on the board.

All those high speed bus interfaces are probably tied directly into the CPU, the chipset, or both, and so are largely gonna be covered by any confidentiality agreement intel imposes on vendors of those parts.

The Pi4 CM is a much more modest device by comparison. It has no ram expansion and only a few lanes of PCIe, USB3, and some other fairly standard IO interfaces otherwise.

Realistically, the frame.work mainboard is the compute module. You plug it into the equivalent of a CM carrier board with the TB4 ports.

Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by cmeacham98 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @11:48PM (#31577830)
It's not just about the reason, but other details too. Does "we'd love to release them" mean "we just mean more time", "there's a 50/50 chance we'll be able to release them", or "we'd love to but it's a long shot". If they are going to come out, will it be in weeks, months, or years?
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by needle0 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:11PM (#31590165)
Them not mentioning it, despite mentioning it making their optics better, pretty much seem to point to the NDA not even letting them discuss the stuff you stated.
Re:Framework laptop water damage repair attempt using partia... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:17AM (#31578391)
> due to "reasons*, none of which are likely to satisfy everyone, so we'll try to avoid that discussion

Being so vague and listing no reasons doesn't seem helpful to me.