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Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by mcculley on Monday May 30, 2022 @12:44PM (#31560834)
> human extinction and the mere collapse of our civilization

How do you imagine human extinction being an outcome? It seems to me that the worst case scenario is large loss of population which would decrease greenhouse gas output. There would still be some increase in temperature even once we stop emitting, but wouldn't people in colder climates still survive?

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by formerly_proven on Monday May 30, 2022 @02:42PM (#31562187)
There's some fairly absurd doomerism going on in the "climate catastrophe tomorrow" camp where climate change will (somehow) turn earth into a barren rock and we're inches away from triggering a self-reinforcing climate resonance cascade of unforeseen consequences.

It's of course a very urgent issue, but I think exaggerating it until it becomes a threat to "all life on earth" levels is a) dishonest b) does nothing to convince sceptics that it's a real issue, quite the opposite c) is not really all that actionable (at least not in a good way).

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by PheonixPharts on Monday May 30, 2022 @10:12PM (#31565491)
> where climate change will (somehow) turn earth into a barren rock and we're inches away from triggering a self-reinforcing climate resonance cascade of unforeseen consequences.

The "barren rock" is a bit of a strawman. Very few if any people believe that the elimination of all life on Earth is in the cards. Human life, on the other hand, is certainly possible.

For the vast majority of major extinction events in history it looks like rapid climate change was the major trigger, and at some point small changes lead to a "self-reinforcing climate resonance cascade of unforeseen consequences", and we currently don't know exactly what the limits are.

This is the focus of a huge amount of the work of Peter Ward and he has written plenty both for scientific and a popular audiences.

Now he may, of course, be wrong. But his work is credible enough that you have to at least take into account that the real risk of extinction is possible.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by goatlover on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @12:44AM (#31566186)
It's hard to imagine how climate change would lead to human extinction, since humans have inhabited such a wide range of environments across the globe for thousands of years, have technology to help cope with extreme climates, and are vary adaptable. What would make every single environment unlivable for humans? I don't believe there is a single climate model that does that.

And how many climate scientists actually believe extinction is on the table? I've seen some say collapse of global civilization and mass death is a possibility under the worst case scenarios, but not really anyone claiming all humans would die. Anyway, the latest IPCC report puts the upper range of warming at 3.7°C. Which is bad, but not the apocalyptic hot house Earth scenario. But even with that, some environments will still be livable. People live on mountains, near likes, far inland, way up north and all over the place. Earth isn't going to turn into Venus, and it was a lot hotter when the dinosaurs evolved. Plants and animals still survived after the Permian die off.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by luxcem on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @12:05PM (#31571211)
> It's hard to imagine how climate change would lead to human extinction, since humans have inhabited such a wide range of environments across the globe for thousands of years, have technology to help cope with extreme climates, and are vary adaptable. What would make every single environment unlivable for humans? I don't believe there is a single climate model that does that.

Human life today is mostly maintain with infrastructure (water, food, security, health, etc). A cascade of failure due to climate change can destroy all but very local and small infrastructures. With society eventually returning to a pre-industrial conditions. It is not the end of humanity but the pre-industrial world economy can't support food, water safety and health care for 9 billion people. In pre-industrial era world population were less than 1 billion, we might return to these numbers. That means death of the large majority of human. Not extinction but the biggest threat in human history.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by coldtea on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:05PM (#31562448)
>will (somehow) turn earth into a barren rock

Well, hundreds of millios displaced and/or dead would be enough. Doesn't have to "turn earth into a barren rock".

And as for "suddenly", many systems tend to have a breaking point, especially systems, like the environment, which have feedback loops that can easily feed into each other and make things worse fast. Collapse is seldom linear or a nice gradual curve.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by lelanthran on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:39PM (#31562807)
> Well, hundreds of millios displaced and/or dead would be enough. Doesn't have to "turn earth into a barren rock".

Actually, yes it does. The OP specified "human extinction". We're arguing that single point. The fact that thousands/millions/billions might displaced isn't being contended.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by actually_a_dog on Monday May 30, 2022 @08:14PM (#31564947)
40% of insect species are declining and 1/3 are endangered. In terms of biomass, we're losing 2.5% of all insects every year at the current rate. Insects are essential contributors to the biosphere, both as pollinators and as food sources.

If that's not a "threat to all life on earth," I don't know what is. And that's just what I could find with 5 seconds of googling.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/10/plummeti...

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by ClumsyPilot on Monday May 30, 2022 @08:27PM (#31565009)
The point the OP is making is that wiping out all life on earth is an impossible and silly benchmark. No-one sane thinks 'oh, but we don't have to do anything about climate change because some worms will survive around the thermal vents on the ocean floor'

To 'wipe out' life on earth, you have to crash the moon into it or do something similarly ridiculous - remember that a giant asteroid wasn't enough.

Wiping out all human life is possible, but again I don't think that anyone is comforted by the idea that 0.1% of the population might survive in an arctic cave.

Where we seem to fail is in communicating to folks that don't want to spend money to fix the problem today how their life will become miserable tomorrow.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by actually_a_dog on Monday May 30, 2022 @08:41PM (#31565073)
If we lost all the insects in a ~100 year period, the result would be close enough to losing "all life on earth" for anyone who doesn't have a microscope (or, more likely, a telescope). This is not an exaggeration in any sense of the word.
Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by goatlover on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @12:50AM (#31566216)
We won't lose all insects. They didn't all die off when a massive rock took out the non-avian dinosaurs 65 million years ago, and that was far more catastrophic (worse than any human nuclear winter scenario).
Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by astrange on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @04:53AM (#31567357)
Might’ve taken a while to grow back though.

The loss of insects isn’t caused by climate change, it’s too much pesticide use and people trying to have lawns instead of native plants.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by ClumsyPilot on Monday May 30, 2022 @08:51PM (#31565123)
You are not wrong, but isn't the insect-apocalypse distrinct from climate change? Insects aren't dying from CO2 emissions, different policies are needed to address them.
Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by actually_a_dog on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @06:37AM (#31567960)
It’s a combination of climate change and loss of habitat from expanding agriculture.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/insects-are-dying...

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by seibelj on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:09PM (#31562483)
The temperature and co2 levels have been much higher in the past. The earth has been much more tropical as well as an ice world. Humans can adapt to change quite effectively - we did invent air conditioning, as well as the land of The Netherlands which is reclaimed and existing beneath sea level.

What is the greatest tragedy is how much worry and anxiety climate change causes. The earth is not a thinking thing - “Mother Nature” is not a being. The planet will exist and doesn’t care about humans. A century after the last human lives nature will swallow up almost everything we built. Earth exists for humans because we live here and make it so. We will adapt to whatever climate exists.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by giantrobot on Monday May 30, 2022 @07:25PM (#31564682)
> The temperature and co2 levels have been much higher in the past. The earth has been much more tropical as well as an ice world. Humans can adapt to change quite effectively

It doesn't matter what Earth was like at some point in the distant past. There weren't 8 billion humans living on it. It's not easy or cheap to move cities with populations in the millions because sea level rise puts them below water.

Humans can adapt to climate change but it's very likely to be very painful and very expensive.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by seibelj on Monday May 30, 2022 @07:45PM (#31564802)
Yes but acting like 99% of humanity is going to die is irrational, illogical, not true in any reality, and scares the shit out of people. It’s tragic that doomers have made people think that has any chance of happening.
Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by ClumsyPilot on Monday May 30, 2022 @08:31PM (#31565027)
It definately could happen if major nations compete for ever-shinking habitable land or water and trigger a nuclear war.

Do you expect that several hundred million people who's previous land of habitation is now unable to support human life will just lie down and die peacefully?

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by andrekandre on Monday May 30, 2022 @07:31PM (#31564719)

  > We will adapt to whatever climate exists.
i dont know what to say except that a lot of people will have to unnecessarily suffer because of that inaction... [0]

also, air conditioning and the netherlands are ways to deal with existing nature, global warming on the other hand is entirely man-made and compunding

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/world/asia/india-extreme-...

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by skyfaller on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:18PM (#31562591)
There are a large number of things that could kill everyone, but I think the top threat will always be ourselves. It's very easy to imagine some resource war degenerating into a nuclear war. A few self-induced crises like that on top of the climate crisis would be enough to finish the survivors (who might have made it if the only danger were the environment).

Think of the world population's size and global distribution as hedges against disaster: the fewer people who live, in fewer habitable places, the more likely it is that some disaster will affect everyone remaining and leave no one unaffected. We have fewer rolls of the dice, and there may come a day where they're all snake eyes.

This why many are excited about the idea of "making humanity an interplanetary species", as I once was until I realized how hard it would be to make a working biosphere anywhere else, given how bad we are at maintaining one that already works. If we don't figure out how to save this biosphere, we won't have enough time to make more.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by Filligree on Monday May 30, 2022 @12:55PM (#31560944)
True human extinction doesn't seem plausible, but in a worst-case scenario we can imagine a > 99% drop in population, roughly to what is sustainable without technology, in a dramatically harsher world.

("Without"? Well, nobody today knows how to build a cast-iron plough.)

I don't believe this scenario is likely. For one thing we're not headed for 8C of heating; for another, technological change seems to be coming just in time to head off the very worst outcomes, assuming we struggle hard enough.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by skyfaller on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:25PM (#31562660)
We probably aren't headed for 8 degrees of heating, based on what we know today. There are a lot of "out there" scenarios that don't make it into sober, conservative scientific reports from the IPCC, because they recognize how important it is that people take their warnings seriously, and they don't want to mention anything they don't have very clear evidence for already.

One of my "favorites" is the "world without clouds" scenario, which for the record, I consider unlikely, but is horrifying to imagine: https://www.quantamagazine.org/cloud-loss-could-add-8-degree...

What we're dealing with are "unknown unknowns": what tipping points might exist that we don't know about, that might result in more warming faster than expected based on today's science? We shouldn't take those kind of existential risks.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by vkou on Monday May 30, 2022 @01:40PM (#31561475)
> assuming we struggle hard enough.

We aren't struggling at all, though. We just eased off the accelerator a little. (Assuming that our accounting is correct, and that methane leakage isn't worse than we think. [1])

[1] It's worse than we think.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by Filligree on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:49AM (#31581771)
True, but...

I need to retain some optimism, or I get too depressed to keep on. In this case, my optimism is that solar/wind and batteries will drop enough in price that fossil fuels become economically unfeasible.

It seems possible! I just hope it isn't too little, too late.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by kpmah on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:36PM (#31562781)
Even if it doesn't directly cause extinction, it could do things like destabilise nuclear powers.
Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by Spooky23 on Monday May 30, 2022 @11:03PM (#31565738)
People underestimate the suffering humans can endure. Primitive humanity was able to endure reduction to a few hundred mating pairs of humans.

Society as it stands is much more fragile, but I’m sure we’re more likely to destroy ourselves from within before climate is a really major factor.

Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by thisismyusrname on Monday May 30, 2022 @06:57PM (#31564510)
Positive feedback loops causing runaway warming is one way
Re:Programming in the Apocalypse by XorNot on Monday May 30, 2022 @10:28PM (#31565551)
Reduce human population by enough and extinction goes back on the agenda long term. There was at least one [1] population bottleneck in the last 70,000 years.

Of course I would've thought "aren't you worried your grandchildren will live miserable, dangerous lives struggling to survive" would be a decent argument but I've encountered no Boomer who seems to worry about it as they excitedly tell me about the coming collapse of something or imminent major war in wherever.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/genetic-bottleneck-almost-ki...