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Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by sacrosancty on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:03AM (#31527798)
Even in countries with universal healthcare, people regularly can't afford treatment because expensive treatments aren't included.
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by FrenchDevRemote on Friday May 27, 2022 @07:18AM (#31528249)
My grandma got a million dollar cancer treatment over a few years, multiple surgeries, chemos, meds, dozens of appointments.

We paid for TV and parking(and we could have gotten free taxis to the hospital/doctors appointments but she didn't want to ride with a stranger...)

Are you talking about 3rd world countries?

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by sacrosancty on Monday June 06, 2022 @06:52PM (#31647475)
I'm thinking of New Zealand. We frequently hear of people who can't get some expensive treatment because it's not funded by the government. Can you say for sure that every medical treatment available in the US is funded by your government? Will they even fly patients to the US for specialist care if it's not available locally?
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by Deritiod on Friday May 27, 2022 @07:00AM (#31528119)
In Germany my aunt gets expensive cancer treatment without extra pay.

Any specific you think about?

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by trompetenaccoun on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:57AM (#31530382)
Meanwhile people have to pay thousands of Euros to maintain their teeth if they need root canals or prosthetic dentures and such. Maybe you're just not old enough to know?

Btw the "free" tier system is a joke in Germany. Waiting months for an appointment is the norm for anything more serious than a cough, unless you're privately insured which all the rich people and interestingly civil servants are. Tells you a lot when those working for the government don't use the public insurance themselves.

People may be surprised to hear that someone with a medium income (by EU standards) can get better healthcare in Africa than in a place like Germany. Or at least for now, the ANC is working hard on destroying the private healthcare sector in SA.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by Deritiod on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:08AM (#31530493)
I have to visit a few low key specialists: Neuro etc. And while waiting is true sometimes calling around helps.

The teeth problem I'm aware of and find it quite unfair indeed.

Nonetheless cancer doesn't make you poor in comparison to the USA.

Still something which has to be fixed in Germany.

But you still have the option to go private if you want.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by trompetenaccoun on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:49AM (#31530997)
Do you have personal experience with fully private heathcare systems in other countries? I ask because reacting to criticism of your system with whataboutism concerning the US is not rational, that's a fallacious argument.

As for the US I'm not an expert but my gut feeling is that people compare apples to oranges just like with most of these international comparisons. Cost of living is much higher in the US first of all. Things are simply more expensive in general and American salaries are a lot higher for anyone moderately educated. No one I know who's moved to the US has any problems with insurance, they can simply afford it.

Now if you compare a government sponsored system in Germany with private insurance in the US, of course the former will be cheaper (be careful though, some of the real cost is hidden). But like mentioned you also get completely different treatment. Cost in the US could likely be cut by making the service worse. If you want to pay even less, have you looked at the Chinese system? Germans are massively overpaying in comparison to the PRC and it's ruining the middle class. /s Gotta sinophy your healthcare with 10 Yuan TCM pills for cancer treatments. Because cheap is apparently the goal when it comes to healthcare.

Btw, here's the kicker if you want to discuss price: With the top notch treatment you get in private South African clinics, people still pay less for their private insurance over there than the government mandated low quality one in Germany. I know because I've used both.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by Deritiod on Friday May 27, 2022 @05:30PM (#31535161)
There were articles of people from USA with proper jobs taking a deep dive after cancer.

The critisism is coming from USA to.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by trompetenaccoun on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:05PM (#31535463)
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/krank-und-ruiniert-schu...

>The critisism is coming from USA to.

Dumb people exist in the US too - color me surprised. It's not about defending the US healthcare system, I'm sure there are enough issues worth criticizing. However almost every time one sees such reports it turns out the people were simply under-insured or outright uninsured if you actually bother to look at the details and not just the headline. So in Germany you have similar high bills, people are simply ignorant of this because the true cost is socialized and the tax payer pays for it. Have you never wondered how a fully privately insured person living a comparable lifestlye at the end of the month still has more disposable income in the US compared to Germany?

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by Deritiod on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:50PM (#31535837)
You can't be underinsured in Germany at least for critical thing's.

The bills are smaller. USA is paying a high price for their health system. This one is statistically shown.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by NoGravitas on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:40AM (#31529523)
Like in the UK, teeth are considered luxury bones.
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by GaylordTuring on Sunday May 29, 2022 @02:19PM (#31551420)
I've never understood this. Not attending to an infected tooth can, for example, spread to other parts of the body, ending up with you having a heart attack or something.
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by spicybright on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:08AM (#31527832)
What kind of treatments? How regularly?
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by ulzeraj on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:19AM (#31527901)
While in Brazil a person very close to me suffered a very destructive paranoid psychotic crisis. We've tried help from the public healthcare but their earliest waiting time was 1 month. I've slept for days at the door because she was convinced there were Russian cameras and radioactive emitters planted at our house and wanted to run away. That person stopped to eat and bath and wasn't thinking rationally. We couldn't wait a month.

It was the worst time of my life. I had to pay a private psychiatrist to treat her. A very good one - we plotted together a plan to partake on her fantasy and administer a risperidone injection which was super effective. She is fine now and visits said doctor once in a year only.

Sure you can go to a general clinic but the doctor will forward you to the proper specialist queue which might take months or even years.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by FooBarWidget on Friday May 27, 2022 @07:11AM (#31528195)
In the Netherlands I once sought an eye treatment for my wife. The local hospital only had a waiting time of 2 months. So I called my insurance company who then found another clinic ~45 minutes away by public transport in some small village, which had a waiting time of 2 days. Everything (besides the bus ride) was still covered by the public insurance system.
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by krzyk on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:54AM (#31528084)
Universal healthcare is well overrated in the US.

From a country that had it, it usually means: ugly hospitals, sad faces, long queues for treatments (I mean wait time for "free" treatment can be well over a year).

There is no free lunch.

On the other hand, I usually can get my kid to doctor same day, while using private healthcare provider (paid by my employer) it is almost impossible, 2-3 days wait.

On yet another hand, to get registered to my local doctor I need to use phone and start calling when they open up (8am) - sometimes I can't get to registration. The private healthcare has a normal website where I can look up registrations - so it is less time consuming (and automateable to some degree).

Private hospitals are rare here, and most of real work is done by public ones. Because the hospitals don't have enough money, they e.g. don't provide separate meals for people that need them (e.g. you had a digestive tract operation), so it is up for the family.

Good thing recently is that if your kid needs to go to hospital, there might beds for parent to stay with the kid (I'm not sure if that is that common in all hospitals)

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by reacharavindh on Friday May 27, 2022 @07:09AM (#31528182)
I think the right solution is the middle - private primary care and public chronic & advanced care. India does this but loses out on effectiveness because of capacity problems and simply the huge scale it needs to work at.

Primary care is provided by private doctors and hospitals, so it is almost like a business. Doctors offices have websites, and get reviews from general public. You choose where you go to. All health insurances cover almost all of them. The doctor's offices are "competing" to provide a good service - being clean, solving problems correctly, not charging too much etc.

The government spends what ever money it allocates for healthcare on Public hospitals that focus on expensive medical equipment(labs, diagnostic machines etc), and treating chronically ill patients.

In an ideal world, you go to private doctors to figure out what is wrong, and then use the public facility if you can wait, and get the surgery/medicine/treatment for free. Often times, the private doctor refers you to a public doctor with a specific note that says this person needs this particular surgery using this particular medical device.

However, this systems leaves a big hole in catering to the poor who cannot afford to go to a private doctor for primary care owing to costs. No system is perfect. I think this model has the most potential for better healthcare.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by krzyk on Friday May 27, 2022 @07:18AM (#31528247)
I think a good entry point for making public healthcare better would be making each doctor visit require a small amount of money. E.g. $1 or $5. This way people that go to doctor just to have a talk (because they are bored - yes that happens in public healthcare, because it is free so people abuse it) would free up the queue for people that really need the visit.

AFAIR there was such proposition in France some time ago, I don't know how they solved that.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by Deritiod on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:59AM (#31528113)
Good for you that your employer pays for it.

I think universal healthcare is a social must and we need to fix it instead of talking it down.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by NoNameProvided on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:31AM (#31529417)
I live in east Europe in a country with public healthcare (our system even considered to be in bad state). However if I have to choose between spending the saving of my family and spending a week or a month in an ugly hospital, I choose the latter without thinking. The doctors doing the healing are the same, the quality is the same, only aesthetics differ.

There are problems with puclic healthcare that needs solving, but I would much rather focus on thoose problems than pumping insurace companies with money so private hospitals can charge 10x-100x the price of a treatmant (compared to Europe for example).

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by Cyclical on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:22AM (#31529974)
Coming from Canada, and having had multiple large surgeries and hospital visits over the years, I've had an entirely different experience. We have universal healthcare and some of the best hospitals in the world. As well, the NHS in the UK is consistently ranked among the best healthcare in the world. I have experienced just as long wait times at U.S. hospitals as I have at Canadian ones, but with honestly far worse service as it felt like the doctors were trying to get me out of their sight as fast as humanly possible.
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by beojan on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:50AM (#31531032)
Private healthcare in the UK would have many of the problems you identify with the NHS if it couldn't pass anything difficult to the NHS.
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by Closi on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:30AM (#31527955)
> What kind of treatments? How regularly?

In the UK there is a department called NICE which uses health economics to understand how to best utilize the funding for the national health service to best improve health outcomes (generally measured by increasing QALY or Quality-Adjusted Life Years, but there are multiple measures in reality). This means that if there is a £500k treatment that could save the lives of a 70 year old, but there is a £1m treatment that could save the life of a 20 year old, and there is only budget for one, it would go to the £1m treatment because it has the biggest impact on QALY.

So the treatments that don't get approval are usually those that have a poor return. Note that it's usually the whole treatment that gets approved / denied rather than particular patient (or it is approved for a particular subset of people).

The other issue is capacity - so for instance, if there is only a limited capacity to perform MRI scans, then triage is required.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by Symbiote on Friday May 27, 2022 @07:24AM (#31528274)
It's worth mentioning that in the UK you can still pay for private treatment, and thus avoid any queues. You can also buy insurance to pay for private treatment.

A few countries forbid this, including Canada.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by diordiderot on Friday May 27, 2022 @07:18AM (#31528246)
As an American, that's just disgusting. The government shouldn't decide if your parents die.

The free market should decide. If you created enough shareholder value then you'll have enough to pay for their treatment like God intended.

Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by spicybright on Friday May 27, 2022 @08:22AM (#31528707)
I'm hoping this is sarcasm.
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by diordiderot on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:27AM (#31529359)
It is indeed
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by LadyCailin on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:35AM (#31529459)
I know this is tongue in cheek, but all these countries also have private health options, so it’s not really a genuine argument against it anyways. If you were too poor to afford good coverage in the US, you wouldn’t be able to afford the private coverage in other countries either, but for rich people, private insurance is easily obtainable, for relatively cheap too, since they compete with “free”.
Re:GoodWill ransomware forces victims to donate to the poor by sgjohnson on Friday May 27, 2022 @06:19AM (#31527898)
All kinds, very often.

They aren't outright denied, just backlogged for years. Need a hip replacement in the UK, and you're a smoker? Good luck trying to get it within a year.

Because it turns out that healthcare is a service, and just making it "free" doesn't magically make it immune to scarcity.