News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by TekMol on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:19AM (#31514895)
What is the reason Google published their research details about Imagen?

Why don't they just keep their findings to themselfes and build products on top of them?

Public companies can't do stuff just for the fun of it, right? So there must be some commercial reasoning behind it?

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by nmfisher on Thursday May 26, 2022 @03:06AM (#31515540)
Two reasons: 1) Even though it's all technically very impressive, so far there's not a huge amount of commercialization potential here. OpenAI is charging for its GPT-3 model but its revenue is probably negligible next to the hardware costs (sunk + ongoing) to train it in the first place, let alone the researcher salaries they're paying 2) Most of the stunning examples are cherry-picked. These things fail much more often than they are willing to admit, and they're probably assuming (correctly) that not enough people are willing to pay for something that only-sorta-kinda-works 1/3 of the time, when you're holding it the right way.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by adamhowell on Thursday May 26, 2022 @06:11AM (#31516574)
I'm currently working fulltime on AI-powered design suite Accomplice (https://accomplice.ai) and if you ask me on a good day I would tell you I do think there's already huge commercial potential. On a bad day, though ;)

My current approach is a "model marketplace" (https://accomplice.ai/models) where the most popular open source text-to-image models (VQGAN+CLIP, Disco Diffusion, DALL-E Mega coming soon…), sit alongside the most popular open source style transfer models, and then finally I have the ability for a user to finetune their own models using a simple drag-and-drop tool (https://accomplice.ai/no-code-model-training).

Using this approach a user has enough models to try or train that they can have a higher hit rate. For example, Accomplice currently has finetuned models for photo realistic people (https://accomplice.ai/models/f58bfa91-bb18-406f-a0e1-db00fcf...), watercolor backgrounds (https://accomplice.ai/models/91b8a080-faca-4ff4-8b11-64b0789...), etc…

So theoretically if there were a searchable marketplace of 100s of different finetuned models people could choose from, they would use it much like an iStockPhoto and be able to create the kind of images they want instead of just downloading them.

But it's of course a constant work in progress. Slowly growing though and lots of promising stuff ahead!

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by nmfisher on Thursday May 26, 2022 @11:52AM (#31519866)
I meant commercialization potential for companies like Google, where anything less than a hundred million is probably a failure :) Hopefully for the non-Googles of the world (i.e. you), there's a good pathway forward!
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by TekMol on Thursday May 26, 2022 @08:20AM (#31517396)
I wanted to try your site, but after clicking on the link in the email, it tries to send me through some redirectingat.com link which is blocked by my ad blocker.

What does that link do?

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by adamhowell on Thursday May 26, 2022 @08:41AM (#31517594)
Update: Ah, found the "Tracking" setting in Sendgrid that I thought I had already turned off. Off for sure now. Thanks again for the heads up!

The confirmation link should only be going to accomplice.ai unless Sendgrid is doing some link tracking that I've just forgotten about. Could you forward that email to adam at accomplice dot ai if you get a chance. Thanks for letting me know!

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by jermaustin1 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @10:30AM (#31518754)
That will get turned back on automatically in an "update".

Same thing happened to me multiple times across multiple platforms: SendGrid, Mandrill, MailJet, MailGun. I always turn off the tracking (enabled by default on all of them), but magically its back on a few weeks/months later. I've given up finding a solution and just revisit my settings every few months to check on it.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by 1024core on Thursday May 26, 2022 @02:21PM (#31521717)
Your headshots model's outputs look creepy. The eyes are off; e.g. the young african girl. You may want to tune your loss functions to fix that.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by dragonwriter on Friday May 27, 2022 @07:27PM (#31536096)
Most of the blue eyed ones have the Eyes of Ibad from Dune. (And several of the ones that aren't blue eyed also have weird things going on in the sclerae.)

The two “african american” ones look south or maybe southeast asian (and the one of those that is a “young...girl” looks like a, maybe young, adult.)

All the ones without a racial/ethnic prompt are white, and disproportionately blue eyed (again, including sclerae.)

(It indicate “diverse”, and yet all of the examples read white or Asian, though the unlabeled darker-skinned male figure in the group of six at the top is ambiguous enough to be plausibly be something else.)

The “beautiful woman with curly red hair” has rather radical facial asymmetry, and straight to slightly wavy hair.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by gbasin on Thursday May 26, 2022 @10:03AM (#31518456)
Cool project! Will follow along
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by kingcharles on Friday May 27, 2022 @02:28AM (#31526596)
*throws money at his screen*
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by nautilus12 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @08:27AM (#31517459)
Why would people do this when aspiring artists are practically giving their real photos and paintings for free on places like deviant art? Why further commoditize something that's already been commoditize to practically free?
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by pmoriarty on Thursday May 26, 2022 @10:59AM (#31519150)
I'm an artist, and I'd absolutely love to use something like this to inspire me or to give me something to continue working with on my own.

In one sense it's kind of like a much "smarter" photoshop filter, where it can make your own art/photos look more like what you want (ex: Van Gogh, Dali, Picasso, or combinations of those, or something completely weird/new/different).

You could also train the models on your own work and have it generate art in your own style that could inspire you or could be useful to you either as a base to work from or that you could take interesting elements from to create new art.

Similar things can be done in music, by the way, and that would be really useful to musicians too.

Poets could use something like this to create poetry, novel writers to write novels, etc..

This is really an improvement on the collaboration potential between humans and computers -- which is probably why it's called "Accomplice".

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by adamhowell on Thursday May 26, 2022 @08:55AM (#31517729)
Well, I'm focusing on business use cases – stock images and how Accomplice could be useful for marketing and content creation.

i.e. The ability to easily take your logo and stylize it: https://accomplice.ai/@adam/iterations/2bcc90ad-3237-486a-8d...

Create a photorealistic avatar whenever you need it: https://accomplice.ai/@adam/iterations/988b7d54-dc39-43b1-b5...

Easily remove the background of a photo: https://accomplice.ai/models/97746c4b-c6f0-49cb-ae1b-859716b...

Upscale a photo: https://accomplice.ai/models/bd4619ee-8202-4cf0-a04e-291820f...

Etc etc. AI can make all this stuff easier. And you have a sense of ownership over what you create. All in one place where you can collaborate on all of it with your team. I feel like that's valuable. It's certainly a tool I've always wanted.

But, also, as a bit of an aside – if the Googles and OpenAIs of the world are just going to bite every artist's style anyway with a mostly black box service and training set… it feels like the option for an artist to train/finetune their own model, promote it and possibly make money off of that is worth trying.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by urthor on Thursday May 26, 2022 @07:58AM (#31517252)
It's also because these companies hire away staff all the time.

Rule 1 of working in this field, recruit a mid level member of the other company's research group biannually to get the latest gossip.

It's impossible to keep a 1 page or shorter "algorithm" secret, when the creators are geniuses and they hop jobs every year or so.

Fellas with more IQ than games in a baseball season, they just don't forget.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by gfodor on Thursday May 26, 2022 @10:39AM (#31518878)
Seems exactly false. DALL-E 2 seems to end much of the illustrator industry and if the endless array of Twitter posts from early adopters are any indication it works great.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by minimaxir on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:29AM (#31514971)
Publishing high impact research gives credibility to the ML teams, which helps recruiting and prestige.

It's less cynical, more incentive alignment.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by hackernewds on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:56AM (#31515132)
Also good for society. Less evil, more nice people. Respect Google for these traits.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by benoketamad on Thursday May 26, 2022 @02:43AM (#31515402)
Oh, they don't even want to create/release a usable image search... Respect, of course.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by Filligree on Thursday May 26, 2022 @07:12AM (#31516978)
Didn't they run into legal trouble with that?
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by Geonode on Thursday May 26, 2022 @08:31AM (#31517493)
They could have won that fight, but they don't care enough. I use Yandex for images now, it's very good.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by lostmsu on Thursday May 26, 2022 @03:12PM (#31522264)
Care to link?
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by dotnet00 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:37AM (#31515012)
I think there are three main reasons why:

- being open is kind of just how things in ML generally work right now, it's in stark contrast to things like chemistry or physics where paywalls are pretty common

- it's a matter of clout, ML is moving ridiculously quickly, with work from just 5 years ago being considered outdated in terms of capability, if you don't publish, someone else will and they'll get the credit. This likely also matters for the researchers since they get credit too. In a sense this is just publish or perish culture from academia.

- it's also somewhat about hiring, which is related to the clout. By putting out this kind of research, they're attracting talented engineers to consider working for them. This of course is pretty relevant to the rest of their business, especially given how heavily Google leans on AI to handle moderation.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by nl on Thursday May 26, 2022 @03:00AM (#31515500)
> Public companies can't do stuff just for the fun of it, right? So there must be some commercial reasoning behind it?

Yes they can actually.

If you are a shareholder you can either sue (unlikely to succeed) or vote against the board. That's pretty much the only recourse.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by pmoriarty on Thursday May 26, 2022 @11:26AM (#31519524)
"If you are a shareholder you can either sue (unlikely to succeed) or vote against the board. That's pretty much the only recourse."

Or you could sell or just threaten to sell your shares.

Buying more of the company's shares to take it over is another option.

Good luck doing that with Google.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by blueblob on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:12PM (#31520890)
I think it is because the proprietary part for them is the data, not the particular algorithm. They benefit more from other people making advances on their technology because they have the data to get more benefit than anyone else. If they kept it to themselves, they would get no "free" advancement. So they trade-off the secret of the technique in the hope that others will advance the technique, making their data more valuable.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by curiousgal on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:42AM (#31515038)
What would the product be? My experience is that most ML papers are very brittle, for every cool result/example you see there's a plethora of nonsense spit by the models.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by pyinstallwoes on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:24AM (#31514938)
Absolute power, corrupts absolutely. Perhaps it’s a game theoretic approach to leveling the playing field.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by vintermann on Friday May 27, 2022 @05:08AM (#31527514)
This is an important question.

You're saying it's Google who have done this research. In a way that's true. But really it is Chitwan Saharia, William Chan, Saurabh Saxena, Lala Li, Jay Whang, Emily Denton, Seyed Kamyar Seyed Ghasemipour, Burcu Karagol Ayan, S. Sara Mahdavi, Rapha Gontijo Lopes, Tim Salimans, Jonathan Ho, David J Fleet and Mohammad Norouzi who did it, with material support from Google.

It's likely that some or all of these people would have refused to do the work they do if Google kept it all as their secret sauce.

And moreover, there are excellent reasons why they wouldn't want to. It's not just the obvious that if it all were secret, they wouldn't be able to use it in their non-Google career advancement. It's also that research without the freedom to talk is far more difficult and frustrating.

On paper, scientific papers are supposed to document the whole of the discovery/innovation. So you might think that an insider, who got to read all the secret Google research papers AND all the public ones would have an advantage. But problem is, even the best written papers with full code and comments inevitably leave out things, especially of the "why this and not that" type.

If you're a researcher in the free world, you can just ask. Especially if you have a public track record of great papers yourself, they will WANT to talk to you. You can learn so much more from the interactive process of back and forth questions than you can from a static piece of information like a scientific paper.

If you work for a secretive and command-driven organization, you need to be careful about what you reveal of your own research when you ask. You can't talk freely. The thought of having to justify your communication to some old-school IBM lawyer type, is going to chill even the most enthusiastic reseacher. It's easier to just stay in your own corporate bubble, and focus on the things your corporation does well since at least you can talk freely to your colleagues (although in really paranoid organizations like the NSA or old IBM, even that may not be true). But then at best you specialize, at worst you fall behind.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by dekhn on Thursday May 26, 2022 @04:30PM (#31523009)
Google started publishing for several reasons but the primary one was recruitment (showing off was a secondary goal). The mapreduce, GFS, and bigtable papers played an important role in attracting an early generation of distributed computing/high performance computing people from around the valley and CMU/MIT, who helped build the second really successful versions of the web search engine (retrieval and ranking), ads serving (the auction, the logs joining pipeline), etc.

The other reason is that the leaders at Google at the time believed that we would achieve the singularity faster if Jeff Dean periodically sent ideas back 10 years in time to Doug Cutting.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by frozenport on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:43AM (#31515040)
1. This finding is hard to monetize, especially with ROI that Google typically does (for example a an app that makes $500 a month isn't worth it)

2. Deploying models in a cost effective way is hard

3. Lessons learned from building this model can indeed be monetized and many of them may be kept secret.

Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by toxik on Thursday May 26, 2022 @07:49AM (#31517190)
It’s simply flag planting. If they don’t do it, some other player will.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by yaroslavvb on Thursday May 26, 2022 @02:10PM (#31521601)
Researchers like to talk about and show off their work outside the company. If you don't let them, they get unhappy and leave.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by quickthrower2 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @03:14AM (#31515596)
It could be classed as a way to attract talent. It is basically then a very expensive fusball table.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by 29athrowaway on Thursday May 26, 2022 @02:14AM (#31515243)
Because the competitive advantage is also in the training datasets and ML infrastructure.
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by mzs on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:28PM (#31521070)
You realize this doesn't include the trained data, right?
Re:Implementation of Imagen, Google's text-to-image neural n... by DeathArrow on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:33AM (#31514989)
They did it out of goodness of their hearts. :)