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Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by MichaelZuo on Saturday May 14, 2022 @07:01PM (#31383548)
Was just about to say as well. The more regulated an industry is the more consolidated it will become and the higher the costs will have to be, which either get passed on to consumers and/or in cutting capacity.
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by MereInterest on Saturday May 14, 2022 @10:28PM (#31384735)
Why is that? I can think of "just so" explanations that would point in the opposite direction, that less regulation leads to more consolidation. For example, the less regulated an industry is, the fewer barriers there are to buying up competitors. Or the less regulated an industry is, the more companies in the industry will be forced to cut corners to remain competitive, decreasing resiliency and causing bankruptcy when conditions change.
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by Meekro on Sunday May 15, 2022 @12:00AM (#31385160)
Starting a company in a regulated field is hard. With unregulated fields like most internet companies, you "just do it" -- as long as you pay your taxes, the government will pretty much leave you alone. In a regulated field, the hard part is not following the rules but merely trying to figure out what the rules are. People who haven't dealt with this are probably picturing something straightforward and readable like "thou shalt not put poison in the groundwater" but what you really get is thousands of pages of incomprehensible nonsense that you don't stand a chance of understanding on your own. There are law firms that can help with this, but now it's scary and expensive enough that the 18 year old founders will stay away.

In purely unregulated fields like web hosting, there are tens of thousands of competitors because it's easy to create one. It's true that someone could go around buying up a bunch of them (and companies have done this), but even after they're done there are still thousands of competitors remaining. If a regulatory agency wrote couple thousand pages of rules for web hosts, many existing owners would probably sell their companies rather than embark of the emotionally draining task of trying to make sense of those rules.

Ironically, as the number of competitors declines, the ones that remain will feel more free to abuse both employees and customers. This will lead to demands for more regulation, which reduces the number of competitors further, and so on it goes.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by hansvm on Saturday May 14, 2022 @11:01PM (#31384893)
Regulation usually implies not just behaving appropriately but proving you behave appropriately, which has significant costs and precludes the smaller portions of the market.

I don't have a good mental model for why excluding all firms under, say, $1M would have a different consolidation pattern from including everyone, but it's not totally unreasonable to assume something simple like starting with drastically fewer companies will end with fewer companies as well (that consolidation is monotonic). There might be some nice explanation for that difference.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by chii on Saturday May 14, 2022 @11:08PM (#31384930)
what if gov't regulated industry must also come with a mandated set of startup tax breaks or grants, for fostering competition?

If regulation is what stops competition from forming, but the regulation is required for safety reasons, it makes logical sense to assist new competition into the market. This assistance should be limited to helping the startup be certified, etc, in such as way as to eliminate the barrier to entry resulting from the regulation (but not more - i.e., startups aren't getting extra help beyond that, so as not to artificially subsidize them but not their larger counterparts).

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by epicureanideal on Sunday May 15, 2022 @01:51AM (#31385542)
> This assistance should be limited to helping the startup be certified, etc

Sounds like it would create some inappropriate incentives for lawyers and others assisting with certification...

But generally I agree with the sentiment of the idea. Just not sure how to deal with further layers of problems.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by specialist on Sunday May 15, 2022 @01:42PM (#31389330)
Aka Govt administered cartelism. Which we already have. The trick is changing the governance (incentives, transparency, accountability) to favor people over corporations (and finance).

Perhaps one step would be to stop thinking of corporations are superpersons, deserving of superrights. Instead, we could charter corporations and stipulate that they serve the public good.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by tshaddox on Saturday May 14, 2022 @11:03PM (#31384900)
I don’t think the commenter was talking about competition law (aka antitrust law), but rather lower level regulations concerning day to day operations. Stuff like food safety regulations, hours of service regulations for truck drivers, etc. I think many (but probably not all) of these regulations will tend to encourage consolidation simply by imposing an additional cost that benefits from economies of scale.
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by ethbr0 on Sunday May 15, 2022 @12:28AM (#31385264)
Because understanding and satisfying regulations has a high minimum cost and scales slower than revenue.

Consequently, in heavily regulated industries, it's more efficient for extremely large firms to design and implement the necessary internal gymnastics, and amortize that labor cost over a large amount of business.

Smaller firms still have to do much of the same (at some point, 1 person is the minimum in a role), but can't spread it over as large a customer base.

Or, to put it another way, it's easier to merge your way into larger profit margins in heavily regulated spaces.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by frankbreetz on Saturday May 14, 2022 @07:42PM (#31383809)
I don't think that's true. Look at banks, to are highly regulated and there are almost 5000 of them[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_the_United_States
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by missedthecue on Saturday May 14, 2022 @08:25PM (#31384084)
Banks are probably the worst example you could have given.

There were ~12,500 banks in the US as recently as 1990 (when the population was much smaller than it is today!)

Since the regulations that were passed following the great financial crisis, almost zero new banks have been founded.

https://ilsr.org/number-of-new-banks-created-by-year-1993-to...

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by caylus on Saturday May 14, 2022 @08:18PM (#31384050)
There may be thousands of banks, but all but a few manage their funds at one of the big few, essentially acting as resellers of the big banks' services. For example, I my bank is "Ally Bank", but if I ask them for instructions on how to receive a wire transfer, they instruct me to direct it to "JP Morgan Chase Bank, N.A.", the largest bank in the U.S. I previously used the brand "Simple Bank", which provided accounts via "The Bancorp Bank", the 5th largest.

It's a similar case to cell phone providers: although there are hundreds in the U.S., all but four do not operate their own network, but rather resell the network of one of the big four.

It's an interesting question, though, how much this consolidation is due to regulation versus being a result of a natural monopoly, i.e. high barrier to entry for the type of business.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by lotsofpulp on Saturday May 14, 2022 @10:03PM (#31384605)
> It's a similar case to cell phone providers: although there are hundreds in the U.S., all but four do not operate their own network, but rather resell the network of one of the big four.

Three mobile networks, since Sprint was merged into T-Mobile. It was also inevitable since it does not make much sense to have many different organizations install cell towers and run all that wiring all over a country the size of the US, and split a limited resource like wireless spectrum conducive to data transfer.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by BenjiWiebe on Saturday May 14, 2022 @08:42PM (#31384183)
A nitpick - there actually are small cell phone providers that operate their own network.

They usually have expensive and slow roaming on one of the big providers once you leave their area though.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by elcritch on Saturday May 14, 2022 @08:29PM (#31384102)
IMHO, both situations are true. There used to be more regulations in the US to prevent monopoly formations in media in a region [1] that once relaxed lead to more concentration. Banks had/have some regulations on M&A [2] which when relaxed generally result in smaller banks getting bought out. Concentration are natural trends in many markets without regulation to limit it. Maintaining the "invisible hand of free markets" isn't actually a naturally stable equilibrium in many markets. Especially those where fungibility is low (local media, local banking, ISPs, healthcare, etc).

Now in other markets a high bar of regulations conversely encourage concentration due to increase costs of meeting the regulations. Reforms like Frank-Dodds can be a mix, both making it more expensive to meet the accounting and reporting needs favoring larger companies, but also imposing rules limiting concentration of ownership. However regulation heavy fields can still be opened up by startups/new entrants if they're significantly better than competitors (SpaceX comes to mind).

It's multi-faceted game theory, not a simple rule or sliding scale.

1: https://www.mofo.com/resources/insights/210503-fcc-relaxed-m... 2: https://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/5000-1200.html

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by MichaelZuo on Saturday May 14, 2022 @08:14PM (#31384015)
Most of the 'banks' in that count serve as the local monopoly, or as part of a duopoly, or triopoly in their region and are protected by and regulated primarily by state laws as well. Many state banking regulations are significantly more lax than federal banking regulation.

The handful of banks in the U.S. that serve multiple states and fall under federal banking regulation seem even more consolidated than the baby formula industry on a variety of metrics.

Certainly more consolidated per dollar of cash flow. Probably more consolidated per dollar of net profits. etc.

Which would be the expected outcome of the theory if the baby formula industry in the U.S. were less regulated than federal banks but more regulated than state banks.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by yen223 on Saturday May 14, 2022 @09:02PM (#31384282)
Look at search engines, which are highly unregulated and there's like 5 of them
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by dahfizz on Saturday May 14, 2022 @09:13PM (#31384347)
X implying Y does not mean !Y implies !X
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by josephcsible on Saturday May 14, 2022 @09:14PM (#31384351)
> X implying Y does not mean !Y implies !X

Yes it does. That's modus tollens.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by BalinKing on Saturday May 14, 2022 @09:26PM (#31384427)
From the context, I think they meant “X implying Y does not mean !X implies !Y.”
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by johnchristopher on Sunday May 15, 2022 @06:06AM (#31386532)
Can't wait for VC to pump money in startups that will bring free baby formula to everyone through sponsored growth marketing /s.
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by specialist on Sunday May 15, 2022 @01:34PM (#31389240)
Winner takes all outcomes are inevitable without regulation to preserve competition.

Orthogonal to administrative burden, regulatory capture, politics (dairy lobby, protectionism, whatever). Which are all also base states which must be actively thwarted.

The world is more complicated than Chicago School of Economics' Kiplingesque just so stories.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by MichaelZuo on Monday May 16, 2022 @09:42AM (#31397035)
Why do you believe winner takes all outcomes are inevitable without regulation?

Anyways, if you can devise a way to regulate millions of people spread across thousands of organizations with even 10% less 'administrative burden, regulatory capture, politics' you will certainly become the most influential person of all the time, assuming you keep on delivering year after year.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by specialist on Monday May 16, 2022 @06:34PM (#31403923)
Here's a fare primer:

https://fs.blog/mental-model-winner-take-all/

tldr: power laws, prefential attachment, compound interest.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by MichaelZuo on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:54PM (#31416744)
That explains the likelihood of a winner-takes-most situation developing. But that doesn't equate to a winner-takes-all situation.

I can easily see the 3 largest companies in a given sector taking 90% marketshare, or more. But to imagine 1 company taking 90% marketshare? I haven't seen a credible argument for why that would generally develop outside of some specific niche.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by Abishek_Muthian on Sunday May 15, 2022 @05:25AM (#31386363)
Just like the telecom industry, Making it ludicrously easy for an attacker to taken down communications during a war.

I hope the current world events forces the governments to rethink their strategy of keeping the telecom industry an oligopoly and decide that reducing the barrier for entry to the telecom industry is vital for the national security.

Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by seanp2k2 on Sunday May 15, 2022 @12:51AM (#31385362)
Capitalism will solve everything! Private business is efficient! Competitors will surely recognize this opportunity and swoop in to save the day! High demand and low supply == increased prices and everything still works great! /s
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by johnisgood on Sunday May 15, 2022 @12:53AM (#31385364)
...But our market is distorted by the Government to oblivion. Plus yeah, private is pretty damn efficient, have you ever looked around?
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by inferiorhuman on Sunday May 15, 2022 @12:58AM (#31385375)
You're replying to a comment about an article from Reason on Hacker News. Godspeed.
Re:Bad government policy is fueling the infant formula shortage by iratewizard on Sunday May 15, 2022 @12:58AM (#31385376)
Considering that it's a heavily regulated space, it sounds more like your dream of an authoritarian, centrally planned economy failed.