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Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by Mehringotio on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:17PM (#31357012)
I follow climate change for a while.

Especially the co2 concentration in our air, wild fires, droughts etc.

I'm looking forward to burning less resources for just hashes.

I'm also getting tired of having the same fruitless discussions.

There are a lot of people who have never thought about a ton of implications of crypto.

Real issues are ignored, unknown, or just never even mentioned.

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by mirceal on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:09PM (#31358825)
> I'm looking forward to burning less resources for just hashes.

you do not understand or don't want to understand why those hashes are necessary. Are you okay with burning resources for running a bloated financial system or sponsoring "innovators" out of public money? Are you okay with the money you worked hard for to literally lose value due to inflation? Are you okay with a society where if we stop producing and consuming all but things we really need we will be rewarded with a financial crash?

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by olalonde on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:32PM (#31357275)
Proof-of-work works fine with clean energy. You should direct your concerns at polluting forms of energy sources.
Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by yabones on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:01PM (#31357765)
There is no clean energy, just some that are cleaner than others.

For every solar panel, there's a pile of toxic garbage that must be dealt with after ~20 years. It's unquestionably better than the billions of tonnes of CO2 that would be produced by the equivalent coal plant, but it's still a problem.

There is no "ethical consumption" of cryptocurrency.

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:02PM (#31358728)
Why is it ethical for you to fly in a plane and run your clothes drier but not for someone in Afghanistan to buy food and protect their money by using bitcoin?
Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by Mehringotio on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:32PM (#31359829)
Who said that?

No one.

Don't use a strawman argument.

And independent of this issue: there are of course things which are objectively better for that person in Afghanistan and objectively better for everyone.

Your poor Afghanistan person might like to have less heat waves than Bitcoin because he might not have enough money anyway to save it away as Bitcoin.

Normally those countries use dollar or euro anyway. It's much easier for them than being able to remember a Bitcoin wallet

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:35PM (#31359863)
The US sanctioned them, they can't use dollars or euros

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by Mehringotio on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:08PM (#31360140)
In this case it's our responsibility not to undermine those sanctions.

While I'm not an expert in Afghanistan politics, I follow the Russian war and don't think we should support them by providing bitcoins

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:19PM (#31360230)
So you think people should starve rather than use bitcoin?

What about using it to support democracy in Russia? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/navalny-ally-urges-dono...

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by Mehringotio on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:55AM (#31364235)
I voted for a political party and I'm not an expert in foreign affairs.i don't have the insight necessary.

Therefore it's not my place to break sanctions my country opposes onto another.

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by blibble on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:46PM (#31357524)
that would be fine logic if we had unlimited clean energy

unfortunately as its supply is limited... it being consumed for useless work means it can't be used for useful work, and as a result dirty energy is being generated for that instead

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by New_California on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:20PM (#31358084)
You have it all backwards. The PoW is useful work because it helps secure my hard-earned savings against very high inflation my country is dealing with (I store my savings in Bitcoin). While many other (non-PoW) energy uses you have in mind are useless for me.
Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by blibble on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:41PM (#31358393)
there's plenty of other assets that can be used as an inflation hedge (e.g. precious metals, inflation linked bonds, etc)

none of which require burning hundreds of barrels of oil a day calculating quadrillions of sha1 hashes to keep their value from collapsing

and if you don't want to physically hold them then there's ETFs for that

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:34PM (#31359199)
What about when clean energy is negatively priced would you be ok using bitcoin miners to make it more economical then?
Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by Mehringotio on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:34PM (#31359845)
No.

Bitcoin would still compete for other things which are much more critical toost people on our planet.

Things like a storage battery. Or melting aluminum or other ors.

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:23PM (#31360274)
Things like a storage battery - we already have a battery shortage with not enough to power electric car manufacturing.

Or melting aluminum or other ors - this doesn't work because the load is extremely fickle. You have to be able to turn on/off easily and frequently.

other things can certainly come along and compete for the power. Its not like bitcoin mining isn't price bound. It always seeks the cheapest energy regardless of location

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by Mehringotio on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:58AM (#31364249)
I only brought examples.

We are in such a bad place from a co2 point of view, if my examples don't work, we need to incentive to find better things.

Bitcoin is not better. It probably still consumes more wasted than just keep burning it.

After all the mining itself needs cooling (ac), Asics miners and local infrastructure (a gas engine)

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by phatfish on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:20PM (#31358074)
When there is a global surplus of clean energy then we can look to burn it on a distributed global casino.

Until then there are countless better ways to use it. And yes, Crypto isn't the only wasteful use of energy, but it sure is the most obnoxious.

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by kec on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:06PM (#31357831)
Increased energy usage is increased energy usage. The underlying argument here is proof of working isn't actually burning this energy for any useful purpose and the excess clean energy production should be directly offsetting dirty energy production instead.
Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:51PM (#31358552)
This is not true. If you take a bitcoin miner and put it on a gas well that is leaking methane which is 10x worse than CO2 and burn that methane to create CO2 you are increasing energy usage and cleaning the environment. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-05-03/methan...

If you have already mined coal burning in a field and instead take that coal and put it through a generator and mine bitcoin with it you are using more energy and cleaning up emissions. https://www.wesa.fm/environment-energy/2022-01-31/how-waste-...

In a lot of places in the midwest up to 25% of wind or solar energy is priced at a negative level, this means they are paying to produce energy. Setting up a bitcoin miner is perfect because it can be quickly turned on/off and doesn't require consistent power like most manufacturing or other energy intense activities. This makes renewables more economical.

This goes into all of this as well. https://niccarter.info/wp-content/uploads/txsummit_nc_oct08....

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by kec on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:22PM (#31359028)
The disconnect isn't that energy usage is bad, it's that many folks view bitcoin as a waste with no economic value.

Burned methane/negative priced reproducible energy/excess energy in general would be better spent on more valuable energy intensive pursuits such as desalinization, metal smelting, direct air carbon capture....

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:28PM (#31359128)
I agree with your point on economic value.

But on other uses of the energy you can't really do these things,

desalinization - in the middle of the country with no salt water plus inconsistent energy

metal smelting - doesn't work with rapid turning on/off

direct air carbon capture - doesn't work with rapid turning on/off

Bitcoin miners can be turned on/off quickly and don't require much infrastructure except an internet connection. How would you ever run a big plant with unpredictable times/days that it could actually run?

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by Mehringotio on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:43PM (#31359938)
Exactly! Bitcoin incentive to NOT make it viable.

Instead of putting a Powerline there or building a smelter or something else, Bitcoin is easier and makes more money quicker.

This is not a good thing right now this is still bad. And as soon as you have Bitcoin mining there, no one wants to underutilize it because it is inefficient. Now your miner is motivated to run even more and get more money

Do you really believe a Bitcoin miner would accept being shut down for most of the day? Nope.

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by cdiddy2 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:32PM (#31360361)
Do you really believe a Bitcoin miner would accept being shut down for most of the day? - yes, as the hardware cycles have slowed down this has become more and more viable to use old hardware some of the time.

Instead of putting a Powerline there or building a smelter or something else, Bitcoin is easier and makes more money quicker. - I assume there is already a powerline to any wind/solar farm. The issue is the negative priced electricity. If you can't compete with a bitcoin miner that is always seeking the cheapest electricity regardless of location then maybe your project isn't economically viable. Its not like miners have a monopoly, just agree to pay more than they are willing to pay

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by Mehringotio on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:00AM (#31364263)
Of course it might not be economical viable.

Bitcoin is not the solution it's part of this problem because it's decoupled from that market.

It pushes into a market which is bound by different rules.

Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by New_California on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:24PM (#31358134)
The purpose is to secure my savings against inflation and confiscation. It is a very useful thing, I assure you.
Re:Ask HN: Is anyone else glad the crypto market is crashing? by AlexandrB on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:33PM (#31358283)
So the US posted some nasty inflation numbers, and crypto... tanked relative to USD. How is this securing your savings against inflation?