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Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by simonh on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:23AM (#31351799)
NATO is purely a defensive pact, nowhere in it's charter is there any provision for initiating hostilities and there is zero political support in the west for aggression against Russia or the acquisition of Russian territory. Until February the west was absolutely more than happy to funnel billions into Russia in return for oil and gas, and almost pathologically avoided any thought of taking any action that might affect trade with Russia.

There's one problem with that statement above when I said this:

>zero political support in the west for aggression against Russia or the acquisition of Russian territory

The problem is the west and Russia have very different ideas about what constitutes Russian territory. Putin has been crystal clear, in numerous speeches and written statements, that he considers several other countries 'Russian territory' including Belarus, Georgia, the 'stans' and Ukraine.

Ukraine joining the EU or NATO would forever take it out of the political and economic domination of Russia, and that's what he can't tolerate. In his mind that's a hostile takeover of territory that rightfully belongs to Russia and that's why he went to war. It's why in his opinion he had to go to war. He's not actually lying when he tells Russians that the west forced his hand and this is about the defence of Russia, because in his mind Ukraine is Russian territory in the same way that China considers Taiwan Chinese territory. When he says Russia, he doesn't mean the same thing that NATO leaders say when they use the same word.

So those who say they agree with Putin or agree that NATO forced his hand, are signing up to the same view of the status of Ukraine and therefore the Ukrainian people.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by Wildgoose on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:45AM (#31352012)
NATO aggressively bombed Serbia over the issue of Kosovo. I don't know how anyone can seriously claim "NATO is purely a defensive pact" with a straight face.

I think that bombing Serbia was probably the rupture that has led us to the terrible situation we have in Ukraine now.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by selimthegrim on Thursday May 12, 2022 @09:43AM (#31354049)
How much credibility would NATO or EU have had with Turkey if a bunch of Muslim Bantustans were permitted to be made?
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by KptMarchewa on Thursday May 12, 2022 @07:13AM (#31352286)
Being a "defensive pact" does not exclude preventing genocide next to it's borders.

The fact that you call it "the issue of Kosovo" is telling.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by Wildgoose on Thursday May 12, 2022 @07:42AM (#31352522)
What is really telling is your admission that NATO is also an Offensive Alliance, which is exactly the point I was making, and which has led directly to this tragedy.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by megous on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:10PM (#31356903)
What tragedy? I don't see any tragedy caused by NATO. The war started before NATO involvement. The same with Yugoslavia. Years of war and attrocities, massive refugee crisis in early 90's, ended in a month by NATO.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by CRConrad on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:41AM (#31353171)
Preventing genocide next door is defense, not offense. Just like in Ukraine now. The most Offensive thing here is your defense of genocidal wars of aggression.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by walrusfromspace on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:10AM (#31354468)
>Preventing genocide next door is defense

The problem here is that when you give a defensive alliance a mandate to defend entities that are not covered by it's mandate it becomes a de-facto offensive alliance.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by simonh on Thursday May 12, 2022 @11:06AM (#31355270)
No it does not. They did not initiate the aggression.

There's a question of semantics here of course. We're contrasting aggressive and defensive military action. I don't see how characterising military action in defence of others as aggressive is a useful or meaningful characterisation. It's defensive, just not defensive of yourself.

Also let's look at the objectives. The intention in Kosovo wasn't to invade Serbia but to end ethnic cleansing. The fact it took force to achieve that was a means to and end, not an end in itself. Without the ethnic cleansing there would have been no military action, so it wasn't about territory or aggression.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by denton-scratch on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:33PM (#31356442)
> Preventing genocide next door is defense, not offense.

If the way you choose to prevent genocide is by marching an army into a foreign country, that's called "offense". Your argument is sophistical.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by CRConrad on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:37PM (#31359883)
Yes, but that's what Putler is doing. I was talking about the West helping the victims thereof to defend their homeland.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by lostmsu on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:50PM (#31372406)
That's what he wants people to believe he is doing. But he actually started aggressive. Even if you don't take Crimea cause supposedly there was not much blood spilled, the invasion into Ukraine started on April 13, 2014 when Russian special forces killed a group of Ukrainian internal security officers deep into Ukrainian territory. There were no "victims" to defend at that point.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by CRConrad on Saturday May 14, 2022 @04:22PM (#31381947)
Yeah, bad writing on my part. I meant what he's doing is offense, not "preventing genocide".
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by denton-scratch on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:31PM (#31356418)
> Being a "defensive pact" does not exclude preventing genocide next to it's borders.

Actually, it does. Kosovo and Iraq are clear evidence that NATO is not a defensive pact. Neither attack was preceded by a judicial ruling that genocide was occurring (and genocide is very difficult to prove).

I'm afraid those attacks seriously undermined NATO's moral authority as a "defensive pact".

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by agapon on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:42PM (#31359927)
AFAIK, the Iraq invasion had nothing to do with NATO. It was done by the US with some NATO (and non-NATO) countries joining it. For example, France was strongly opposed.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by denton-scratch on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:45AM (#31369114)
Nod. Substitute Kosovo/Serbia for Iraq.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by simonh on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:06AM (#31352761)
Surely you mean the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? Unless you're implying that was a sham political cover for naked Serbian self interest. Perish the thought.

NATO was defending Kosovo from a war of aggression and ongoing genocide.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by walrusfromspace on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:08AM (#31354440)
>NATO was defending Kosovo from a war of aggression and ongoing genocide.

Except that Kosovo was not a part of NATO so you can't say that NATO is a defensive alliance unless you are going the Roman way of pre-emptive defence[1].

[1] All Roman wars were officially defensive because they believed gods would not support an offensive war

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by simonh on Thursday May 12, 2022 @11:50AM (#31355880)
I have addressed this point in more detail across thread. Defending other people is still defence.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by aiilns on Thursday May 12, 2022 @07:23AM (#31352365)
> So those who say they agree with Putin or agree that NATO forced his hand, are signing up to the same view of the status of Ukraine and therefore the Ukrainian people.

I don't have to agree with Putin to say that I can understand Russia's issues with Ukraine. Saying that Putin's/Russia's attitude makes sense, does not mean I agree with it. It's in Russia's interests that Ukraine should be under Russia's influence, and in USA's interests that Ukraine be away from this influence and under their own, NATO serving as a tool for this.

Now would the Ukrainian people's lives be better if under the EU's/NATO's influence, instead of Russia's? Maybe. Right now though, there's a war. Would a pro-Russia regime in Ukraine (& not trying to join NATO) have resulted in no war? Is the war worth it? Time will tell.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by simonh on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:47AM (#31353243)
I don't agree with Putin either, but I also agree that his actions make sense within his own frame of reference.

It's not just about whether the Ukrainian's lives would be better from any observer's opinion. Nor is it a matter of them 'being under ... influence' as though they have no agency and are simply chaff blown in the wind. This conflict is fundamentally not about influence over Ukrainians, but about the Ukrainian people's right to self determination.

This whole situation is often framed as the power and influence of great powers over regional pawns. That is not at all what this is about. Until February this year the USA as a nation barely even registered that Ukraine existed, let alone whether they had any influence over it. Ukraine was a patch of land along the route of a Russian gas pipeline, and that's the only reason it was important at all. The USA couldn't have cared less. It was an addendum to a footnote in their foreign policy, hence the feeble and deliberately ineffectual response to the annexation of Crimea.

What triggered the Russian annexation of Crimea, was it US foreign policy shifts? A buildup of NATO forces? No, it was the Maidan protests in Kyiv bringing down a pro-Kremlin regime, and free and fair elections in Ukraine clearly indicating the Ukrainian people wanted to turn west. It was action by the Ukrainian people that triggered that response, not NATO. They are the ones driving this shift, and that's why all of this is even more maddening for Putin because he sees this as a traitorous betrayal of Russia by Ukrainians, by daring to think that they have any right to do so.

This is why I talked about "signing up to the same view of the status of Ukraine and therefore the Ukrainian people"

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by aiilns on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:46AM (#31354978)
I won't pretend to be an expert on the matter, but I do not agree with your view.

For one, I think you are seriously misrepresenting USA's position. It's the biggest military power in the West and possibly the world, a country with military bases and operations all around the world. That the USA does not concern itself with other countries' matters is, sorry to say, laughable.

I also don't agree with your position that this is about the Ukrainian people's right to self determination. I think it's much closer to civil war, with "pro-Russia" Ukrainians, especially in the Donbas region, against "pro-Ukraine" Ukrainians. In 2014 that the pro-Kremlin regime fell, I remember some 50 people were killed in a burning building in Odessa. And the pro-Russia separatists of Donetsk & Luhansk were persecuted by the (corrupt) governments of Yatsenyuk & Poroshenko. Leading among those fighting against the pro-Russia "terrorists" was the Azov battalion, with several ties with neo-Nazis. It received military aid from the US up until 2018. And Ukraine has been receiving significant military aid from the US since 2014.

So to me, what you define as "right to self determination" seems more like nationalism in Ukraine backed by the USA to squash pro-Russia movements and separatists.

Lastly, I don't think that recognizing that big players like the USA, China, Russia can, and do, exert their power and influence to meddle in other countries, means that the peoples of those countries are "regional pawns". But framing it in a way that excludes their influence means you miss the big picture.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by agapon on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:49PM (#31359983)
This is just a bunch of Russian propaganda bullshit. Starting with completely skewing order of historical events. For starters, Poroshenko was elected a president well after the Russian incursion into Donbas had begun (google for Girkin / Strelkov, Sloviansk).

Either you know shit about Ukraine 2013-2014 or you are just a Russian propaganda tool.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by simonh on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:18AM (#31365944)
It is true that Ukraine has been historically divided politically between Ukrainian and Russian speakers, but the Russian invasion seems to have pushed that firmly into the past. The are constant, countless Russian speaking Ukrainians speaking out in horror at what is being done - to them! The regions that have suffered worst from shelling of civilian areas and mass murder, mass graves, etc are actually the Russian speaking regions. Putin has initiated a huge demographic shift in Ukrainian population by overwhelmingly massacring Russian speaking Ukrainians, and they are not happy about it.

Social media and the news is full of Russian speaking Ukrainians describing the killing of their family members, destruction of their homes, abuse by Russian troops.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by denton-scratch on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:27PM (#31356367)
> Putin has been crystal clear, in numerous speeches and written statements, that he considers several other countries 'Russian territory' including Belarus, Georgia, the 'stans' and Ukraine.

Don't know why you've been downvoted; Putin's MO is to openly support dissidents in neighbouring countries; declare that the dissidents are being persecuted or "genocided"; encourage the dissidents to declare a republic; and then move an army in, to defend the bogus republic.

Declaring that Ukraine is part of Russia doesn't make it so.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by pvaldes on Thursday May 12, 2022 @04:25PM (#31359753)
> Putin's MO is to openly support dissidents in neighbouring countries; declare that the dissidents are being persecuted or "genocided"; encourage them to declare a republic; and then move an army in, to defend the bogus republic.

Is not confined to neighbors. It seems that Putin secretly offered 10.000 soldiers to the crooks in Cataluña to "defend" the new republic after the independence declaration. Has been playing the amoeba game for a long time:

"During his visit (2017), Medoyev drew parallels between Catalonia and pro-Russian, theoretically independent republics such as South Ossetia and Abkhazia"

https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/26/inenglish/15090...

Puigdemont talked with Russia the day before declaring the independence of Catalonia.

https://www.yenisafak.com/en/world/putins-envoy-allegedly-of...

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by denton-scratch on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:56AM (#31369224)
Harrumph.

I didn't know that Russia had offered troops to support Catalunya; it doesn't surprise me. Part of his approach has been to interfere anywhere he can, whatever the ideological situation is, to stir up chaos. I think his goal is to create dissent between western peoples and nations, and undermine their unity.

It's not working very well just now. It's having the opposite effect.

I've long thought that his "create as much chaos as possible" approach was childish - like, I don't like school, so I think I'll set fire to it. Or, you don't show me enough respect, so I'll throw stones through your windows.

He wants to be treated as a serious world leader; but he behaves like an 8-year-old having a tantrum. Any parent knows that you don't negotiate with an enraged 8-year-old. It's a waste of time, if not counter-productive.