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Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by grapeskin on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:03PM (#31348383)
Bitcoin alone was apparently given a market cap of over 2 trillion recently.

That’s roughly the entire GDP of France. If France’s economy poofed out of existence or halved in value, that’d be a huge shake up.

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by mikeyouse on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:10PM (#31348424)
It helps when you understand that "market cap" has no meaning in the crypto world and that their "trillion dollar" numbers are completely imaginary.

The market cap of a stock (shares outstanding x share price) makes sense because each share represents a piece of the profits of the company and an ownership stake. If you took away half of the shares, the price per share would ~double and the market cap would remain the same since it's based on current cash + projections about the future profitability of the company, and the share price reflects those expectations. None of that is true for crypto.

Financially illiterate crypto people started multiplying the coin price x number of coins outstanding and calling that a "market cap" but there's nothing underlying the crypto world. Owning a bitcoin doesn't represent a percentage profit of some underlying economic activity that's being independently valued, coins are zero coupon bearer instruments, the value is in the coin itself. It's like talking about the "market cap" of pesos, just incoherent and easily gameable.

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by pavlov on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:16PM (#31348476)
And for a practical example of how the crypto operators weave “market cap” out of nothing, read this revealing interview with Sam Bankman-Fried:

https://www.ft.com/content/eac0e56c-f30b-4591-b603-f971e60dc...

He’s the CEO of one of the largest and most established crypto exchanges. The interview is stunning.

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by majormajor on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:19PM (#31348510)
How you can be in business selling this shit as non-shit when admitting the truth without having some crazy legal liability exposure problems is amazing to me. Like, FTX literally advertises "you don't need to know anything about crypto." But he says you should here!
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by pavlov on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:30PM (#31348596)
For a lot of people, the game seems to be simply to grab the cash now and if regulators eventually come knocking, lawyer up, settle and keep most of your profits.

I remember a guy on HN a year or two ago who was very proud of the ICO he ran in 2017. The token was useless, investors lost their money, and he was fined something around a million dollars by the SEC. But to him that was a mark of pride, like he fought The Man and won. His excuse for scamming investors was basically “startups fail too, I’m a founder.”

The toxic startup hustle exemplified by Uber and some other companies ten years ago directly led to the utter moral collapse in crypto.

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by majormajor on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:34PM (#31348619)
It's just particularly amazing when someone doesn't even follow a "keep your mouth shut until after any potential legal fallout comes" playbook.

And like, if you're a crypto true-believer, any crash that may or may not happen this year probably doesn't mean too much: the surge in prices wasn't because of any particularly groundbreaking developments in terms of the main long-term pitches (e.g. "new financial infrastructure for the world"), even NFTs seemed to really follow the price run-up, not lead to it. It really looks more just like a lot of people gambling with cash to burn in a situation where a lot of traditional entertainment was less attractive if not outright restrictive. So keep your head down and keep building...

But building a trading platform then talking shit about stuff that as far as I can tell you are making money off of trading (e.g. Luna, https://help.ftx.com/hc/en-us/articles/4491807784852-FTX-wil... )... that just seems begging for trouble.

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by woodruffw on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:52PM (#31348751)
At the risk of starting a flamewar: I wonder about the relationship between the degraded practices of many startups and this sort of "got mine" mentality. The dominant pattern for startups over the last 10-15 years has been to soak up VC money, obtain massive valuations, flood the market with supply, and establish yourself as a hegemon once you've wiped out all of the stable but cash-poor competitors.

Perhaps it's excessive pattern matching, but it's hard not to see a civic relationship between the (correct) perception of startups as underhanded and the rise of an entire industry of scammers who will do and say anything to get ahead.

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by daniel-cussen on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:10AM (#31354463)
That's funny. Founder. Like if I were a woman I would treat that like, "What? You're in a band?" Like OK lead singer of a known band, then you're not in a band, you're in that band. But it's just nah.

So the view from the inside, like what a VC sees, is that everybody is piling up and it's so so easy to say "I've got hot shit" and you have to be like "yeah maybe." A lot of the time "don't pitch me bro." And set it up like a nightclub, realistically none of the founders will have real tech without getting it from real researchers, so they have to impress you with how well they work the club. Now that I say that I'm figuring out my own strat too, treat it like a club.

So the second secret, don't tell anybody, don't link to this comment, close the doors, unplug the ethernet, turn on the wifi jammers, put your smartphones in the faraday cage, the secret is: everybody wants you to lose. Everybody wants you to lose. Just like in a club. When you accept that, it's so much easier! The entire club wants you to prove you're a lesser man, like sit next to the bar waste your money on drinks (never on a hotel), parade in circles concentrically around the women dancing with their clique of girlfriends in the middle, asking like once or twice and feeling bad for months about being rejected, that's what the club wants the men to do. And there is violence at the club, it's not like "the worst that can happen is she says no" that's a load of shit, it depends on a lot of things.

So it's the same adversarial environment, everything going against you. Realize that, and it's suddenly much easier.

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by elliekelly on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:37PM (#31348638)
If he’s the person I’m thinking of then his parents are two lawyers who teach at Stanford.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by atdrummond on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:29PM (#31348585)
GDP is a flow. It would be better to compare the total assets of France to Bitcoin’s market cap. France’s public stocks have a market capitalization of over $2T alone. Then there are private firms, real estate, personal and government assets, IP, etc. In short, France’s actual worth far dwarfs that of the BTC market.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by eterm on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:56AM (#31350113)
Right, trying to compare GDP and "market cap" is like trying to compare the Amazon river with Lake Michigan.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by majormajor on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:10PM (#31348428)
France's GDP results from liquid money already being moved around.

"Market cap" estimates assume that everyone could sell without the price moving. It's going to be far more sensitive to price changes than an actual country's GDP, it's based on what current trading prices are.

And Bitcoin, unlike a company with a huge market cap, isn't providing goods or services. E.g. if Apple disappeared into thin air, everyone hoping to buy new Apple phones or computers would be dramatically affected and that would have a ton of ripple effects. But if Apple's sales dropped to 0 and then they went out of business, their valuation would be down to 0 but a lot of people would've recouped some of their investment on the way down - the people selling earlier being better off than the ones later. This is a crazy scenario, though, since they're sales wouldn't go to 0 overnight.

So who's actually relying on Bitcoin? Some companies in the space, sure. Probably a bunch of individuals who did stuff like use bitcoin as part of their wealth portfolio when taking out loans. But if those people had those holdings wiped out, will the ramifications be huge? My guess is probably not but I don't actually know how many people would, for instance, be unable to pay their mortgage if their crypto holdings imploded.

(This will be interesting to see if a crash does happen: in a world where you believe prices always go up, the "clever" move is to not sell your bitcoin, but to borrow against it, so it appreciates in the background still. But in a world where there's a crash, this could leave you worse off than before, the debt won't go away just because the price fell.)

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by grey-area on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:56AM (#31349453)
Reverse wealth effect will have a significant impact though: suddenly millions of people who thought they were well off will find out otherwise as their crypto investments melt into air at the same time as their stocks and bonds crater and central banks have few tools left to fix this as they are fighting inflation.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by the_gastropod on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:09PM (#31348420)
Market cap is a hilariously meaningless term in the world of crypto. $2 Trillion very simple <number of coins> * <last purchase price> calculation. Nowhere near $2 Trillion of actual money are in this system. Comparing this to the GDP of one of the largest economies on the planet is... well, it's just silly.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by atleta on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:21PM (#31348523)
The economy of France is a device that generates the GDP. Erasing that device is not the same as taking away the (one year's worth of) product of that device. If you erase the economy of France then you erase a lot of companies doing business with a substantial fraction of the world. So you shake the whole world economy not simply through erasing some money owned by someone but business connections. You'll have a lot of companies in trouble for losing either customers or important suppliers.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by majormajor on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:13PM (#31348456)
Consider also that Bitcoin already halved in value in recent months without having the impact of half of a France getting bombed out of existence. ;)
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by jimmydorry on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @11:21PM (#31348922)
But still up at least 400-500% if you bought any time up until COVID hit. ;)
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by kgwgk on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:54AM (#31349785)
19,783 to 27,000 is much less than 400-500%.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by jimmydorry on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:57AM (#31364610)
I think you've picked a starting point a year into COVID?

~$7500 (Dec 2019) to ~$35000 (May 2022)

https://i.imgur.com/N117Uqp.png

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by kgwgk on Friday May 13, 2022 @05:38AM (#31365194)
In my timeline 2018 happened before covid hit.

You can even see it on your chart.

How is the late-2019 starting point relevant?

Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by jimmydorry on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @12:00AM (#31405891)
Because it was right before COVID occured and pretty close to the average trading price for the prevous 5 or so years. Sure, the price has run significantly higher than that average for a month or two among those 5 years... If I wanted to be pedantically accurate, I would have added a few paragraphs of disclaimers, but it was an off-hand comment pointing out the obvious that the GP had ignored in their own off-hand comment.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by KrishnaShripad on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:11PM (#31348442)
There is a big difference though. GDP is measured per year. Bitcoin market cap is of its lifetime value on date when you measured it (based on exchange rate fluctuations of course). So Bitcoin collapsing is not the same as France's economy going out of existence.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by brendoelfrendo on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:10PM (#31348433)
France's economy actually produces things, though; it represents the economic output of 60 million people. Bitcoin is an asset in a class of assets that doesn't really do much of anything on its own.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by aaaaaaaaata on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:07PM (#31348402)
To Belgium, perhaps.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by beezle on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:05PM (#31348391)
Slightly less than Apple's market cap.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by adamnemecek on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:07PM (#31348401)
GDP is annual. Market cap is not. It’s like comparing income with net worth.
Re:Cryptocurreny retailer BitPrime closes trading after runn... by variaga on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @10:16PM (#31348478)
It's the classic mistake of comparing stocks and flows