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Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by ChuckMcM on Thursday October 20, 2011 @12:15AM (#3133422)
You may (or may not) be surprised but when I was there a lot of energy was spent by the rank and file on not being evil.

The challenge is of course in 'winning' and decades of research on this shows that people who really want to win will be a bit evil if they can get away with it and win at the same time.

So what Google has is a competitive culture (for a long time you couldn't get a raise without getting a promotion) which is peer balanced. They have a huge toolbox of technologies that can generate cash when tweaked. And they have certain groups who's success criteria is 'can you make more cash this quarter than last quarter.'

Unless actively worked against, like mold in a bathroom, evil sort of emerges out of that environment. Kind of scary to watch actually.

Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by brc on Thursday October 20, 2011 @02:13AM (#3133673)
You describe what I was trying to say. It's easy to be non-evil in a startup environment for a variety of reasons.

However, once sold and listed, quarterly performance numbers start to permeate the entire organisation. As you say, the needs of making these numbers start to outweigh the don't be evil mantra. And, because the original services were set up with a 'trust us, we're not evil', the gains to be made from tweaking the 'evil' dial up, even just a tiny bit, are quite large.

I'm not surprised the rank and file are committed to the lofty ideals and goals, and they probably will continue to attract new recruits for the foreseeable future. But in order to keep committed to those types of goals, necessarily some profit is going to have to be foregone. That's mighty hard to do.

My guess is that the big event that makes people trust Google less is close, or maybe has even already been but hasn't been disclosed yet. To me, they're in the same kind of space that Microsoft was post-Windows 95 and pre-Windows 98. Everyone still likes them but questions are being asked. Legal intervention is around the corner.

I see privacy kind of like any economic externality. There's no (immediate) price on loss of privacy, so people are happy to trade it away for benefits like free email and social networking. Can you price privacy? Well, objectively we already are when we forgo private services for free ones. You could say we price our privacy at the cost difference between a free service and a paid one.

Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by jdp23 on Thursday October 20, 2011 @12:30AM (#3133454)
I'm not surprised at all. Back in 2006 when I was doing competitive strategy at MS and studying Google's culture, I came away very impressed with how much people throughout the organization cared about not being evil. But the dynamics you describe were already in play.

Also Google+ is being led by Vic Gundotra, who spent most of his career at Microsoft. Do relative newcomers to Google have the same passion about not being evil, and the same norms about what is/isn't evil?

Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by forza on Thursday October 20, 2011 @05:31AM (#3134115)
"Don't be evil" is a flawed motto to begin with and should have been something like "be good" if they were serious about it. People thinks all kinds of things, like war, are "not evil".
Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by dredmorbius on Thursday October 20, 2011 @01:47PM (#3135923)
Read the story behind the motto.

It started as a one-engineer campaign, almost a joke. He'd write the motto on whiteboards in meeting rooms. It spread from there.

I think the heart was in the right place. It seems to have moved.

Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by billswift on Thursday October 20, 2011 @12:37AM (#3133468)
And people who really want to "win" will be as evil as they need to be in order to "win" (however they define winning, hence the quotes).
Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by methodin on Thursday October 20, 2011 @08:20AM (#3134460)
What exactly do you expect them to do? They are not a charity or a non-profit. They either have to stay competitive or die. I hardly call that evil .
Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by ChuckMcM on Thursday October 20, 2011 @04:54PM (#3136934)
I can't speak for anyone but myself of course but living the 'don't be evil' motto would result in Google sometimes leaving money on the table if taking it would involve betraying some trust. When this comes up it is inevitably a privacy violation that people are concerned about, but sometimes its a bait-and-switch type situation like the new pricing for AppEngine.

I don't think anyone believes them to be a charity or a non-profit, but if you could show how a billion dollars in the quarter was not collected (reducing their free cash flow from 2.8B$ to 1.8B$ for the quarter) because to do so would have required sharing 'too much' information about their user's browing habits, or what they stored, how they used AppEngine. They would get tremendous kudos and support from the community and Wall Street would mercillessly pummel them. I mean really, who wouldn't pick a billion dollars up off the floor?

That sort of wall street punishment would depress their stock price, and that would hurt the employees who feel 'better' when their stock options are worth something than when they are worthless. It is a vicious circle.

Remember the discussion in City Slickers [1] when Bruno Kirby's character tries to get Billy Crystal's character to admit he would cheat on his wife if the situation was 'right.' (and by right he generally meant there were going to be no consequences, no one would find out, etc etc.) And at the end Billy Crystal says "God would know." That was a wonderfully crisp treatise on integrity, and it illustrated, the difference between externally applied values versus internally upheld values.

It seems few people in life have the level of integrity that Billy Crystal's character shows, and so the process seems to boil down to keeping enough consequences in place so that employees won't violate a company value, and having the will to fire people who step over the line, even if the company benefitted from their action.

'Don't be evil' is, as many have pointed out, really too squishy to be actionable. But something like 'if you have to choose profit over privacy, choose privacy.' would be. Certainly not as catchy though.

[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101587/

Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by tomkarlo on Thursday October 20, 2011 @06:20PM (#3137373)
It's hard enough to figure out how much money a product will make when you're building, but you want companies to come out with SEC-acceptable projections for how much they would have made on projects they chose not to build?

It's very hard to figure out how much individual feature elements in a huge product or service earn or lose. It's similarly hard to put numbers on the damage to brand done by a privacy violation or breach of trust costs a company. Attempting to guide company ethics via financial metrics just leads to people finding loopholes in the math.

Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by ChuckMcM on Friday October 21, 2011 @12:11AM (#3138373)
"It's hard enough to figure out how much money a product will make when you're building, but you want companies to come out with SEC-acceptable projections for how much they would have made on projects they chose not to build?"

Historically this is precisely why Google has declined to provide any guidance at all. At the time Google starts being able to provide SEC-acceptable guidance on their income I would expect the creative people there will have left.

As WOPR would say, "The only way to win is to not play the game."

Re:Jwz: Google's pseudonym support "obvious bullshit" by nathanb on Thursday October 20, 2011 @03:15PM (#3136409)
You want to win in a way that doesn't diminish you as a person. Corporations are not just beholden to their shareholders, they are beholden to their sense of values and to the values of their leaders and employees. Google, of all companies, are powerful enough and have clever enough employees to find a way to not only stay competitive but to beat the competition in a way that is demonstrably non-evil. That they don't seem to be doing this is in fact quite a shame.