News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by KronisLV on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:33AM (#31302036)
> The agenda is obvious to anyone who cares to look.

Alternatively: it's just teaching whatever is popular in the industry, for better or worse (similarly to how DevOps people would be taught Kubernetes, even if it can be horrible in certain cases and for smaller projects).

Many sites out there don't need JS. Server side rendering would suffice. And many other sites out there would be well served with minimal JS for enriching a few forms.

Yet, that's not the reality that we live in. The reality is that the majority of the developers out there will simply have to deal with lots of JavaScript, TypeScript and frameworks like Vue, React, Angular (i'm using the term "framework" here because they change the entire direction of the development of your front end, not that it matters at all).

So, that's what curriculums will focus on, since clearly people want to have good employment prospects. It doesn't seem like the linked one gets too caught up with the frameworks, though.

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by atoav on Sunday May 08, 2022 @06:36AM (#31302857)
I teach that kind of stuff at university — I would never think about teaching JS before HTML and CSS. Students should understand what ia possible with HTML and CSS alone. Then we look at the server side, and understand infrastructure and how servers can potentially deliver different HTML and CSS depending on the request and then we start introducing JS as a means to replace serverside stuff, to enrich HTNL and CSS or to interact with REST APIs without reloading the page etc.

But understanding the infrastructure is key here. Understanding the "M" in HTML, understanding the "C" in CSS, understanding http etc.

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by mrslave on Sunday May 08, 2022 @09:10AM (#31303685)
I am trying to finally learn what's going on in the web browser and my biggest hurdle has been CSS. I can read & write rules but the questions are really, which rules and under what circumstances? That plus the different layouts (grid, FlexBox, etc. -- terminology almost certainly wrong, sorry!). Can you please recommend a good resource for learning CSS & layouts?
Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by chrisweekly on Sunday May 08, 2022 @10:48AM (#31304558)
https://every-layout.dev is amazing, and teaches foundations and builds up from first principles.
Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by cookie_monsta on Sunday May 08, 2022 @09:48AM (#31303933)
Maybe too lightweight for your liking, but these helped me get my head around grid and flexbox:

https://cssgridgarden.com/

https://flexboxfroggy.com/

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by hoofhearted on Sunday May 08, 2022 @10:06AM (#31304089)
Come on now! You must be overcomplicating things if you are having challenges digesting CSS. Cascading Style Sheets are probably the easiest thing to comprehend on the frontend.

Team Treehouse is a great resource for learning frontend and backend stuff.

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by danielovichdk on Sunday May 08, 2022 @10:45AM (#31304530)
How do you center an image on the screen, both on desktop and mobile ?

Like every other aspect of programming, there are multiple answers to this.

So I think it's a valid concern

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by dgb23 on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:41AM (#31302065)
But to master JS tools you want rock solid fundamentals and know about default behavior, writing clean HTML and CSS. I even teach more about networking and HTTP than JS. They actually want to know: what happens when I type an url into the browser?
Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by serial_dev on Sunday May 08, 2022 @04:17AM (#31302225)
While I agree with you that knowing the basics is obviously helpful and desired, in the end what gets you your first job isn't "what happens when I type a URL into the browser".

What gets you your first job is you knowing how to use the tools that the companies already use to ship software solutions on the web. If they use react, webpack, graphql, then your best bet at getting your first job is learning enough about those to be productive in a couple of days at the company, and not what happens after you hit enter in the URL bar.

95% of my work as a regular web/mobile dev was about being able to fetch some data, massage it, display it, then handle user interactions to send something back to the server. Some software dev jobs are more complicated than that, but to be honest, most of what we do it not rocket science.

Once you get your first job, you can work "backwards", and learn the basics. This approach also helps you learn what is important as you see it firsthand that it's important. Your team is there to help you learn, you earn money in the process, you make your customers' life easier, and you build your portfolio and gain experience to get your next job (that will hopefully be more challenging than a CRUD app).

I'm not saying that it's great that you learn the tools before the basics, I'm just saying it makes sense if you want to get a job and pay your bills (and set yourself up for long term success as you learn on someone else's dime.

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by dgb23 on Sunday May 08, 2022 @07:10AM (#31303025)
Have we misunderstood each other? I'm talking about teaching web fundamentals to absolute beginners, not people who are already programmers or CS graduates. In terms of content think starting with something of this scope: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/Getting_start... and then building on that.

The fundamentals are clearer and more accessible to teach than frameworks. This inspires confidence and I'm pretty sure you won't save any time if you jump ahead and teach React and especially Graphql. You have a _way_ better foundation to learn and use React if you know HTML, CSS, JS, HTTP that I mentioned but also browser dev tools and I would even put git before that. Also people who are already professionals in some field close to web dev will ask fundamental questions, they want to understand things.

Learning framework X is a piece of cake if you at least roughly understand how it works and aren't on completely shaky grounds, and when framework Y comes along you can ask the right questions right away.

The _vast_ majority of web development doesn't use React or Graphql anyway. I don't even know a single dev who knows React and Graphql but cannot make a website without them or doesn't know what DNS is, what common HTTP headers mean or don't know how to center a div.

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by solarengineer on Sunday May 08, 2022 @07:19AM (#31303065)
I have worked with people who are "fullstack" with Javascript + Typescript, but do not even know what a CPU core is.

Some are even amazed that a basic HTML page can be created with a plain text editor.

Such people are "ReactJS" specialists, not even Javascript/Typescript specialists. One cannot easily engage in a conversation on types with them - not that they are negative or close-minded, but such concepts are in the "unknown unknowns" for them.

Nope. Knowing the fundamentals does not take all that very long and can in fact go a long way in enabling someone to pick up newer technology.

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by KronisLV on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:27AM (#31311217)
> I have worked with people who are "fullstack" with Javascript + Typescript, but do not even know what a CPU core is.

Now, this is the opposite of the point that you're making, but i have to admit that it's pretty cool on some morbid level! The fact that we have abstractions that are strong enough for them not to leak and make people dig into the details (e.g. the JS event loop being all that they need to think about).

That's also why tens of millions of people out there can work with spreadsheets of text processing software without knowing what a compiler or interpreter is, or even caring much about the benefits of dynamic linking vs static linking.

Similarly, i can write SQL against a DB without knowing anything about the RUM conjecture or really much about anything apart from the very basics of ACID (at least before Oracle fails to plan queries correctly and needs either statistics to be regenerated or hints added for the optimizer, because it's an evil piece of software).

It just works. I'd argue that it's the way things should be - working on the JVM should absolve one from thinking about compile targets and worrying about things like whether the CPU is from Intel or AMD, or what the ASM format is or whatever. Working in the browser might as well absolve one from worrying about most platform minutea as well, otherwise nothing would get done.

Is is still nice to have a bit of curiosity and explore those things, there being some merit to that, which might as well not be immediately apparent? Sure! Is it required for those people to truly be specialists in their own niche and to be safe from people making fun of their other shortcomings online? Absolutely not!

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by rzzzt on Sunday May 08, 2022 @04:55AM (#31302370)
To be fair, it is (was?) a typical interview question, so it does get you closer to a job if you know the answer.
Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by blowski on Sunday May 08, 2022 @05:27AM (#31302505)
Indeed. An interview for a first job is not the place to rant on some pet peeve you've picked up via Hacker News.
Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by DeathArrow on Sunday May 08, 2022 @04:03AM (#31302165)
>Many sites out there don't need JS. Server side rendering would suffice.

But many push towards single page apps even if a web site is better suited for the job. If you only have a hammer in your toolbox...

Also, you can have SPAs without Javascript, you can use any language / framework that targets Web Assembly. I enjoy Blazor for SPA.

Re:Web Development for Beginners – A Curriculum by xigoi on Sunday May 08, 2022 @01:56PM (#31306366)
How do you use WebAssembly without JavaScript? I thought it still requires glue code in order to access the DOM.