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Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by trgn on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:36AM (#31281368)
The US is rotating from housing as commodity investment to housing as intergenerational asset, something which has happened in a lot of other countries already (see e.g. Western Europe, mentioned in other comments here).

House prices will remain up because any gain from sale will be plowed into the next home. It's a ratchet upward. Higher mortgage rates are somewhat irrelevant in this dynamic, because the home itself is not an asset to get capital gain from, but a claim to shelter a family for an _indefinite_ period of time in a chosen location.

USA was inoculated for a very long time, because horizontal expansion over cheap land allowed for expansion of supply. That era is over. Car and highway technology is no longer adequate to expand cheaply and still remain within viable commuting distance.

There really is no limit on how high home prices relative to income can be. When meemaw dies, her inheritance will fund the downpayment of little Sally. That's the perpetuum mobile in Europe, which the US is now cranking up as well.

Rents may still remain affordable, but home prices will detach.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by zamfi on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:32AM (#31281648)
> USA was inoculated for a very long time, because horizontal expansion over cheap land allowed for expansion of supply. That era is over.

True.

> Car and highway technology is no longer adequate to expand cheaply and still remain within viable commuting distance.

False. The US has mind-boggling amounts of land available. What's changed is the ability and desire to build on it. Used to be, the government would pay you (in land, anyway) to build a house. We gave railroads untold amounts of land to develop it.

These days, to build a house you pay the government for all manner of permits, studies, etc. -- and that's if they even let you build in the first place! Zoning laws prohibit new construction in overwhelming amounts of the country, especially in the most expensive areas. In NYC and SF, most existing buildings would be illegal to build under current zoning rules.

What makes building housing expensive is policy, not a lack of "cheap land".

I don't know if the same applies in Europe, perhaps not. In both Europe and the US land has long been the primary vehicle for intergenerational wealth transfer (think estates and productive land, not housing, though -- middle-class homeownership is an extremely recent phenomenon).

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by marvin on Friday May 06, 2022 @03:17AM (#31282287)
> What makes building housing expensive is policy, not a lack of "cheap land".

I am flummoxed every time the discussion of housing prices shows up. Seems like 95% of everyone who comments is completely clueless to the most basic aspects of it.

In the vast majority of Western regions, high home prices are caused by a deliberate decision not to allow building enough homes to match demand, in the places where people want to live. It's really that simple.

In itself, this is a state of affairs we could accept as the current democratic consensus, but it's really stupid when most discussion of the problem pretends that the root cause is something else.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by trgn on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:24AM (#31286256)
I agree with current zoning and permitting is harmful. I can't wait for a better urban life here, with services and amenities in proximity, which more homes closer together would enable. I don't think it will meaningfully reduce cost of home ownership. Infill development is more expensive, and the dynamics at play (if I'm correct) are moving to a European model. Generally pointing in a direction of demand having really high ceilings(the estates of those dead boomers are really going to help with that, the biggest wealth transfer in history is only just starting), and supply will be incredibly responsive to changing conditions, since a home is a claim to a location, sellers will only sell when they can buy again into the existing market.

It's very possible I'm wrong. We'll see what the rate hikes will do to home prices in the next 2-4 years, and already we're seeing relaxing of zoning in many metros, so we'll see the effect of that in 5-10.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by zamfi on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:06PM (#31287494)
Fertility rates are dropping, and national population growth is slow across the West -- the problem is generally where the housing is rather than how much there is in aggregate. Old estates in the hinterlands are cheap, that's not where the wealth transfer is happening. Google will yield you some fantastic estates across the UK and Western Europe costing less than half of a modest 2br ranch-style home in Palo Alto.

> I don't think it will meaningfully reduce cost of home ownership.

More housing would absolutely meaningfully reduce the cost of home ownership. Just look at cities like Detroit and Pittsburgh that, for a time, had a surplus of housing and a declining population: houses became super super cheap.

What's happening now is that housing stock is increasing 0.5% per year, while city population is increasing 5% per year, and then policymakers are turning around and saying "look, we're building more housing, and prices keep rising, it's not working!" -- of course, because cities need to build enough housing to satisfy demand, not just "more housing". Each year we have a new housing deficit, the housing "debt" goes up. To reduce prices, you need to build more than the demand is, which we are so far from doing it is laughable.

> Infill development is more expensive

This, too, is per policy. The sweet spot price-wise for construction costs alone is 4-5 story apartment buildings; outside parts of SF, Manhattan, and a few other inner cities, we aren't there yet. But the cost of infill development these days also includes (1) drafting environmental impact reports; (2) multiple sets of meetings with neighbors to convince them not to oppose your plans; (3) delay and stalling tactics from well-heeled neighbors who oppose your plans anyway (see: CEQA); (4) extensive requirements on insulation, window area, solar panel inclusion, etc. that push costs upwards; and finally (5) years of paying property taxes while you attempt all of the above to get your plans approved. That's leaving out (6) extremely high labor costs for construction, because construction workers need housing too, and their rent is also super high.

We are not going to see meaningful change until we remove at least some of the constraints on housing construction and new supply can begin to exceed new demand. In California, lawmakers are starting to wake up to the problems, but solutions are slow to come.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by danans on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:39AM (#31282010)
> The US has mind-boggling amounts of land available. What's changed is the ability and desire to build on it.

Times have changed and most people don't want to live in marginal lands that are available in mind boggling quantities. In addition, the reason that a lot of cities were built a few generations ago in the hinterlands was because manpower was needed for resource extraction industries, which have since either become highly automated or fallen into secular decline. We are no longer a nation of farmers and miners.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by zamfi on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:51PM (#31287323)
> most people don't want to live in marginal lands that are available in mind boggling quantities

That's not "times have changed" -- people have never wanted to live on marginal lands, that's why the government paid people to move there.

> a lot of cities were built a few generations ago in the hinterlands

Few cities are built in the hinterlands for the purposes of resource extraction; cities grow where trade is, but yes there are definitely towns that have vanished because we don't as many farmers and miners.

The SF Bay Area is dominated by single family homes on large lots. Yes, SF proper has a high density, but the surrounding areas really don't, and not for lack of demand: developers who would build more housing are literally stymied at every turn, and this is not an accident, it is an intentional plan to reduce the availability of housing and keep it expensive, to avoid "traffic", "crowding", and "changing the character of the neighborhood".

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by danans on Sunday May 08, 2022 @01:53AM (#31301695)
I think we are in agreement. In particular about the effects of Bay Area suburban zoning.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by nuclearnice1 on Saturday May 07, 2022 @09:50AM (#31294417)
> In NYC and SF, most existing buildings would be illegal to build under current zoning rules.

The NYC number is 40%, according to the NYT. But close enough and here are some nice maps breaking my down why those buildings couldn’t go up today.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/19/upshot/forty-...

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by refurb on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:42AM (#31281685)
I like your thesis, but the problem is we only need to look back 15 years to see that housing has had massive corrections before.

I think you're underestimating buyer sentiment. In Canada all it took was a couple rate increases in April for housing prices in the 'burbs of Toronto to drop ~20%.

Housing can go from "hot" to "not" really damn quick when prices start their downhill trajectory. What was suddenly a "must have, hot asset" becomes a "fool's game" when people get burned badly.

And based on social media posts, people are getting burned badly in Canada right now.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by trgn on Friday May 06, 2022 @09:25AM (#31284811)
Thanks, I'm sensitive to that, and it's a great point, in the US for sure the 2008 correction was felt for years.

US will likely continue to see rate increases in the next couple years. We'll see if that is going to affect home prices here. Let's check back in 2025 :)

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:45AM (#31281404)
Houses in the US couldn't serve as intergenerational asset simply because they are built of wood with average livespan of ~70 years. While in Europe houses are generally build of brick or cement and last centuries.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by jdblair on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:41AM (#31282020)
All houses need maintenance and upkeep to survive.

My wood frame house in Oakland was built in 1896. Clearly it lasted longer than 70 years. Brick is a terrible building material in California, due to earthquakes.

My brick house in Amsterdam was built in 1886. However, the piles it sat on were wood, which decayed, and the house sank 8 cm.

Both needed new foundations, both were gutted and remodeled on the inside to update them to modern standards.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by spacedcowboy on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:54AM (#31281454)
My (paid for) house in the Bay Area was built ~70 years ago, and it’s just fine, thanks :)

As a European living over here for the last two decades, I agree that European houses are generally sturdier (my parents house pre-dates the USA, I don’t expect mine to last that long), but when you’re spending 6 figures on something, looking after it is a good policy. Catching problems early is the key - as soon as you notice something, fix it and fix the cause…

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by senkora on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:55AM (#31281458)
I think it is clear that the parent is using home-ownership to include land-ownership.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:23AM (#31281601)
Don’t know how it is in most of Europe, but I think that, in the UK, you don’t actually own the land your house sits on; Lord Such-and-Such owns it, and collects rent from you.

In the US, we own the land, and that is usually the real value. I’m the proud owner of a 0.125-acre New York postage stamp. It’s in a fairly affluent area, so is fairly valuable. In Wyoming, they’d laugh at it.

I think Japan is similar.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by radicalbyte on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:10AM (#31281836)
That is not correct.

In the UK, there is a concept of Freehold and Leasehold. In the former case you own the land under and everything built on it. In most of the country you buy the Freehold.

The Leasehold gives you ownership of the building but not the land under it. You lease the land from the owner. I've personally considered this form of "ownership" a trap. It has become more common in recent years as a way for sellers to screw buyers. Particular in the London area where demand is always extra high.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday May 06, 2022 @05:15AM (#31283050)
It’s not incorrect, either. I phrased it carefully, to indicate that I don’t know for sure. It describes my grandparents’ house, in Liverpool (I assume it was a “leasehold.” I never knew the official name). I know that my mother did not inherit their house, but there may have been other factors, involved.

Technically, I guess I don’t “own” my own land, either, but I pay (significant) taxes on it (because I “own” it, according to the taxing authorities. They don’t tax the bank; they tax me). The taxes are assessed on the total value of the land and the building, and location^3 is a fairly significant coefficient.

Land is a weird (but frequently lucrative) investment. You can’t lock it in a safe, and, if your neighbors start a hog farm, you can’t just pick it up and move away.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by rowanajmarshall on Friday May 06, 2022 @10:52AM (#31285851)
> I think that, in the UK, you don’t actually own the land your house sits on; Lord Such-and-Such owns it, and collects rent from you.

This isn't quite right.

There's something kinda like that called leasehold, where you basically own an extremely long lease on a property (typically 70+ years, often up to 999 years), with the freehold (outright ownership) sitting beneath it. Generally it's used on apartment blocks and certain new-builds in specific areas (e.g. they're more common in London, but outright banned in Scotland outside of some pre-existing edge cases). There's a good chance the whole thing will be functionally reformed out of existence in the near future (see here https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/leasehold-reform-in-eng...).

But in any case, the vast majority of UK property is sold freehold, or as you put it "we own the land, and that is usually the real value".

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:01AM (#31285979)
Thanks for the correction.

The only reference I had, was my grandparents’ “named” house, in Liverpool (It was actually a pretty nice place, near the beach, for what that’s worth, in Liverpool).

I remember my grandmother, explaining it to me, and that was what I got from it.

I was too young to have a decent frame of reference, though.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by timthorn on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:35AM (#31281667)
No, that's not the universal case in the UK. My freehold gives me ownership of my house and the land on which it is built.

You're right that most of the value of the property is in the land and not the building though.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by brnaftr361 on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:40AM (#31281680)
You're paying taxes, yeah? And if you were to overlook those tax payments, what would become of your supposed ownership? And subject to eminent domain? Not to mention the many laws of the lands and social expectations besides.

How much do you really own?

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by MichaelBurge on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:00AM (#31281781)
In that sense, you don't own your body either: At any time, the government could send goons to shoot you or jail you or harvest your kidneys. Even if you leave the country, they could put a bounty on your head or send assassins.

Sure, there's courts and laws, but they pick the judges and can choose to change the laws. They could pass a constitutional amendment tomorrow giving themselves the right to harvest your kidneys, the same way local counties can pass a law at any time raising your property taxes.

And, even if you argue that you have rights under the current government, empires don't last forever. 300 years from now, who's to say barbarians won't be ransacking the house you left to your kids? In that sense, your rights are only contingent on the barbarians being too scared to attack, and not absolute.

So if your argument is, "You can't own a house because the government could take it away", it seems like you have no hope and no possible policy change would give you any "true rights" to anything.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by jokethrowaway on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:59AM (#31282147)
What you say is absolutely correct.

While you have governments that can legally steal everything from you just because they can, you'll never really be free.

That said, there are degrees of freedom.

Property taxes in the US are very high so I consider it an inferior degree of freedom compared to owning a house in a country where I don't have property taxes. The more corporation / income tax I have to pay the less free I am, hence why I'll move to a country which charge less corporation / income tax.

Sure, I'm still owned by the government because they have soldiers and guns and I have none - but at least I can live my life as close as possible to how I'd like to live it.

It is possible to fix this situation once and for all: abolish the government and its idea of legitimacy, let people organise their own defence from the goons of other countries by paying voluntarily.

You won't end up with a much different system, you'll still have some people not paying anything and some people paying more to defend their community - but at least I would pay voluntarily what's needed for my defence without enriching the politicians, fake intermediaries with empty promises, and it wouldn't be coerced out of me under threat of fines and imprisonment.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by MichaelBurge on Friday May 06, 2022 @03:19AM (#31282303)
That seems like it would very quickly turn into tribute to the local warlord.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by brnaftr361 on Friday May 06, 2022 @03:45AM (#31282478)
That was, at least the common narrative goes, the fundamental basis for most if not all states. Mutual defense. And it's hardly any different today. There have been many cases of non-state societies who did organize their own protections. But to try and connect the dots with such factions (many of which are still functioning today) and the modern man is an error. We're talking societies with scribal and priestly classes which in no ways exist in the modern era, when the global average literacy sits at 83% and the mindblowing advancements we've seen in the last two decades alone is a force multiplier for autonomous organization that is totally unprecedented, like most of all of the advancements seen since the seminal moments of the industrial revolution.

But ultimately your negative outlook on the human condition is your own, 99% of daily life proceeds under conditions of total anarchy, authority and security are entirely illusory and we pay incredible costs to maintain those illusions, not in terms of liberty alone, but in toil and life itself. It leaves little left to live for, read the Death of Ivan Illyich if you want a better understanding of what I mean.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by trgn on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:35AM (#31286390)
> 99% of daily life proceeds under conditions of total anarchy, authority and security are entirely illusory and we pay incredible costs to maintain those illusions

Those costs are totally worth it. I'd rather live in a nation with liberal democracy and property laws, than whatever more "pure" or original model you seem to have in mind.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by brnaftr361 on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:56PM (#31287374)
You say that but history has lots of examples of people taken in by such egalitarian societies and doing an about-face, and when the European societies took in people, they more often sought to return.

In any case, what I'm talking about is democratic and does not forego property rights, in fact it could give you stronger property rights. But you didn't read the grandparent.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by LMYahooTFY on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:58AM (#31281770)
> but I think that, in the UK, you don’t actually own the land your house sits on; Lord Such-and-Such owns it, and collects rent from you.

I've never heard this before. Is this actually true? Is this some background technical legal truth that isn't noticed in practice?

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by Cederfjard on Friday May 06, 2022 @08:24AM (#31284318)
To be clear, anyone can own the freehold that you’re leasing the property from. The mention of ”Lord Such-and-Such” could give you the idea that this is some antiquated construct where all lands are somehow truly owned by the nobility, but that’s not how it is.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by chrisseaton on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:49AM (#31282061)
Called a leasehold. Not all property is like this though.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by pydry on Friday May 06, 2022 @04:44AM (#31282878)
Like, 85% in London though.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by rowanajmarshall on Friday May 06, 2022 @10:53AM (#31285871)
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by pydry on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:45PM (#31287262)
Ok, maybe I should have specified "under £650k within zones 1, 2 and 3".

I'm sure Roman Abramovich's mansion is freehold as are all those semidetached houses on the outskirts with a 55 minute commute to the centre.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by midhhhthrow on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:36AM (#31281670)
You don’t really own it. That’s just a legal construct. If you have to pay rent to the government (property taxes) to “keep” it then you don’t really own it
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday May 06, 2022 @08:44AM (#31284462)
In Virginia, you need to pay taxes for your car (at least, you used to. Not sure if they still do). This was different from registration, and applied, even if your car is sitting in your driveway without plates.

I think they also used to charge tax for significant-value property, like computers.

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by refurb on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:44AM (#31281694)
This is a bizarre comment because:

1. there is housing that is >100 years old all over the US, some of it the most expensive in the country.

2. Brick and cement houses are certainly not maintenance free and crumble apart over time

3. Most of the value is the land, not the house

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by seanmcdirmid on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:59AM (#31281485)
The really old homes I’ve seen in Europe are made out of wood oddly enough. Of course, when the house was built in the 1400s, it is probably a ship of Theseus. Well, most homes that are around for a whole have to be maintained, even (especially) if they are made out of concrete or brick.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by ido on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:33AM (#31281968)
I think it depends where in Europe? In Germany and Austria they're mostly made of masonry.

Here for example is a 1000+ years old church in Vienna: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Rupert%27s_Church,_Vienna

Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by seanmcdirmid on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:57PM (#31287385)
That church undergoes a lot of maintnence, masonry requires constant repair, so it gets constant repair.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by AngryData on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:45AM (#31282040)
A decently built wood home will last centuries too if it is maintained.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by qeternity on Friday May 06, 2022 @02:55AM (#31282118)
The land the asset, less so the structure.
Re:Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says by joshspankit on Friday May 06, 2022 @10:15PM (#31291599)
I’ve seen the houses being built and “intergenerational asset” is an almost laughable assumption (not by you, but by the American public). Yes the land is worth $$, but I would be surprised if a currently-priced $300k home lasts more than 20 years without needing a $50-100k injection and who knows what labour and materials will actually cost by then.