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Re:What game are you playing? by rektide on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:02PM (#31268082)
One of nerd's worst problems is that the games they play really deeply matter, that their pursuits can be fantastically stunningly valuable extrinsic & intrinsic pursuits. But there's so few people playing the good games, that commit to engaging the world as naked frankly & genuinely. This post preaches recognizing others game. But few people will ever have the capacity to genuinely recignize your game. Nerds: your power asymmetry will be horribly high, and you are just going to have to learn to live with it, with obvious & visible games forever trumping your deep game.

Bruce Sterling had, in a reboot talk[1], an archetype he called high tech gothic. Advanced, wired to the nines, committed & dedicated, defended in position, but trapped alone in your castle too, with unwashed barbarian hordes ravaging the lands all about.

Too real, over a decade ago & the world's just gotten worse & vastly more out of touch with it's real self/tech (eg Bill Gates & Obama being vocal frontmen for ignorant state-based authoritarianist information-control). There's no signs anything will ever get better, except your belief, your caring, your trying.

I am so so so mixed here. This post is such a valuable lesson, such a needed recognition of the rest of the world, of seeing other's potential. And we need to see & believe, see the different games, appreciate each other. But nerds in particular get shit for respect (or such distant respect). Right now we land some big salaries (but Facebook has stopped hiring, winds change). But our game almost always comes last. Everyone else employs us, tells us what product we're building, tells us not to do a thing directly in front of us/simple because the priority is such and such. No one can play our game. Our game always comes last.

High tech gothic. Welcome to earth. Good luck. Fight the good fight.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27443836

Re:What game are you playing? by AussieWog93 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @05:20AM (#31271242)
I'd almost believe this before I started my PhD.

In reality, I think the most common academic/"nerd" game, by a long shot is "acquire as much useless/non-actionable/niche knowledge as possible, so that you can rub other peoples' noses in the fact that they don't possess said knowledge".

With very few exceptions, it's not "the long game", a "good fight" or anything else worth valorising - it's lonely, miserable fucks who are mad that other people are happy.

Re:What game are you playing? by rubychill on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:25PM (#31268234)
Is it power asymmetry or is it that nerd games are over-valued by those who play them?

That was my takeaway from this article, that it's easy to see investment in hard skills as innately better than soft skills.

Re:What game are you playing? by rektide on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:44PM (#31268371)
It depends but most nerds I see arent playing power games at all, they're playing coop. Im not in SV & maybe that has something to do with why I cant recognize the shade you are throwing, dont see nearly the ego difficulties you claim. I spoke about power imbalance, but I saw it less about as having & wielding power, & really about understanding & due respect, about escaping our High Tech Gothic & living among the earth.

Yes there is a power balance. But being able to simply be recognized, seen, having anyone else out there who can rate, understand your game, much less critique or review: some games are overt, visible noticeable, but the world has only superficial stupid indicators to gauge nerds on. They literally dont have the capacity to understand the nerds game. That's high tech gothic, thats what nerds have to adapt to & thrive within.

Re:What game are you playing? by switchbak on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:06PM (#31268920)
"They literally dont have the capacity to understand the nerds game". That's some primo tech elitism right there.

I agree with the parent, that it's an interesting tale about waking up to the fact that others have been optimizing for other goals in life, and in many cases those make a ton of sense, perhaps even moreso than his science game.

Your take on this however, seems to be some kind of idea that no one else can gauge or judge the depths of your contributions, etc. In fact I'm not completely sure what you're saying, but it appears to be almost the opposite of the original article.

I've had my time of thinking what I do is especially valuable and unique. Then I grew up and realized we all (well, many of us) contribute to this world in our own way. A little humility goes a long way.

Re:What game are you playing? by rektide on Thursday May 05, 2022 @12:42AM (#31269560)
> Your take on this however, seems to be some kind of idea that no one else can gauge or judge the depths of your contributions, etc.

I do think we all have ways we want to be perceieved, things about ourselves we want to be recognized, strengths, and that there is a huge massive range of how visible/over/obvious and esoteric/exoteric and other dimensioms that goverm how visible these attributes/behaviors/characteristics/accomishmemts are.

> In fact I'm not completely sure what you're saying, but it appears to be almost the opposite of the original article.

I agree with the article. The article is telling nerds to recognize & acknowledge other people on their grounds, to look generally for good, in many forms.

> I've had my time of thinking what I do is especially valuable and unique. Then I grew up and realized we all (well, many of us) contribute to this world in our own way.

Picking up where I left off, my point is that some games are easier to understand than others. Im not trying to make any value judgement. I havent said being esoteric made anyone better.

I am trying to communicate how isolating & alienating the experice can be when it feels like others done understand your games. When other people perpetually see the score differently.

This post is communicating among other things some straightforward & overt things we can look for in others. Nerds can present as incredible, powerful, respectable people sometimes, they can be appreciated for their game, sometimes. But it can also be readily apparent & hard when it becomes clear people dont really know the score. It can be isolating seeing only superficial respect, or seeing what feels like uncomprehending or undeserved respect given to ourselves or others. Finding real peers, who are fit to judge & assess, is a real life challenge. For everyone. And especially for those a little more outside the mainstream, for the nerds. My posts here are just an attempt at fair warning, about what we can expect, about how hard it all too likely will be to find people who can appreciate your game. You very good excellent people's game especially.

If anything I think what Im saying amplifies the need for humility & mutual respect, & yes, some camraderie among technical peers.

Re:What game are you playing? by AlchemistCamp on Thursday May 05, 2022 @01:13AM (#31269764)
I used to ponder this question at tower records since I had a few extremely nerdy friends in high school. In the decades since, history has been a continual story of nerds steamrolling less nerdy incumbents.
Re:What game are you playing? by iratewizard on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:31PM (#31268274)
Most likely the latter. I've seen a lot of people get fixated on games that are deeply flawed or straight up unfun. Yet, they find the game very appealing.
Re:What game are you playing? by MonaroVXR on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:21PM (#31269022)
What games? I'm genuinely interested.
Re:What game are you playing? by scubbo on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:39PM (#31268327)
> nerds in particular get shit for respect

I have no idea what world you're living in, but it's not mine.

Re:What game are you playing? by rektide on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:48PM (#31268405)
From an organizational level, we're 98% regarded as human resources for management's usage.

From a personal level, few people have the capability to appreciate what we care about. They can measure us with yard sticks & jira points & dollars-of-valued-delivered, but none of these outsiders can adopt our value system & see us as we see ourselves, none can rate us by what matters to us & how we go about & care about our lots.

This post is about opening one's view & recognizing other peoples game. Im contending nerds find few who can rate their game, see what they're really playing at, what real success is & what matters to them. Who else out there has hard really hard to understand games, has a value-system alien to others? That is the defining question to me.

Often we see mis-allocated respect too. Nerds given undeserved respect, sourced in shallow understanding, undermining our trust in the world's sensibility & discernment. The "cowboy coders" and 10x discourse revolves around these outsider/alien/unsensing values being used to determine respect & rank, causing endless offense & distrust & alienation to nerds, confirming to us we are alone in chasing our good game.

The respect you consider is shallow & exterior & the respect we want & that matters to us is often trapped & esoteric. Real success - often yes of the business - often derives from what others cannot see.

Re:What game are you playing? by CharlesW on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @10:55PM (#31268840)
> From an organizational level, we're 98% regarded as human resources for management's usage.

100% of employees are regarded as human resources for management's usage, so "nerds" aren't unique in that regard. The idea that money goes in and business value comes out applies to business nerds, facilities management nerds, HR nerds, accounting nerds, etc. Everyone is beholden to a business operating system responsible for creating value.

This can seem like a bit of a downer when viewed through the "what's it all mean?" lens, but hey, that's capitalism.

Re:What game are you playing? by scubbo on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:53PM (#31279968)
Exactly this. As I said in another comment that was alluding to sprint points - "nerds get no respect" is a much less true or insightful statement than "workers get no respect under capitalism, and many nerds are workers". I suspect that the OP I was replying to believes that nerds are entitled to _more_ respect than the average worker, hence their perception.
Re:What game are you playing? by flappyeagle on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:46PM (#31268386)
He's right about this - nerds get a lot of money these days, but no respect.
Re:What game are you playing? by koonsolo on Thursday May 05, 2022 @01:13AM (#31269760)
Some of the world most famous people are nerds. The richest people in the world are nerds. Elon is 100% a nerd, and he can basically get any Hollywood star he wants.

I'm a nerd, and I consider myself pretty successful in life. I totally agree with the other poster that your view on the world is very different.

Re:What game are you playing? by whynaut on Thursday May 05, 2022 @09:38AM (#31273153)
You really believe Elon could get “any Hollywood star he wants?” He is rich and famous, but considered a weirdo at best.
Re:What game are you playing? by goodpoint on Thursday May 05, 2022 @12:51PM (#31275716)
> Elon is 100% a nerd

According to what metrics?

Re:What game are you playing? by emmelaich on Thursday May 05, 2022 @12:45AM (#31269570)
Rings true for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures

I know lots of engineers and scientists are devoted to art, opera, literature, history.

Next to zero artists or singers who are familiar with say, the laws of thermodynamics.

Re:What game are you playing? by slavik81 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @01:52AM (#31270008)
> Next to zero artists or singers who are familiar with say, the laws of thermodynamics.

You don't have to dig very deep to find counterexamples. Dr. Brian May was the lead guitarist and a founding member of Queen. He holds a PhD in astrophysics. Tom Scholz was a founding member of Boston and has a master's degree in mechanical engineering from MIT. Dr. Brian Holland is the lead vocalist for The Offspring and has a PhD in molecular biology.

As a more personal example, I spent my high school science classes competing on each test for top marks against Wesley MacInnes, who today is an actor and country music singer. (He was the school bully in the last Power Rangers movie. It was an amusing role. Wesley was an extraordinarily kind person in real high school.)

Re:What game are you playing? by emmelaich on Thursday May 05, 2022 @04:58AM (#31271124)
I would argue that their science career came first. Even if less remunerative.

> graduated as class valedictorian in 1984. During high school, Holland was the best student in mathematics in his year,

from wikipedia

Re:What game are you playing? by eyelidlessness on Thursday May 05, 2022 @01:46AM (#31269971)
Excuse me but what definition of “nerd” are you operating under because I want to travel back in time and not literally have the shit beaten out of me and go enjoy an art and history education for the pure academic joy of it.
Re:What game are you playing? by emmelaich on Thursday May 05, 2022 @06:42PM (#31279196)
Are you from the US? The whole jocks/nerds thing is a bit alien to me.

In my school, the top athletes were also good students. The dux was the linchpin of the football team and also wrote poetry.

Re:What game are you playing? by eyelidlessness on Thursday May 05, 2022 @07:26PM (#31279466)
I’m from the US. But the jocks/nerds thing is alien to me too for what it’s worth. In my experience the conflicting difference was jerks/nerds. I wasn’t close friends with many athletes but many of them were friendly, and yes great students. And one who I did become close friends with wasn’t particularly inclined to poetry AFAIK, but we did form a “band” and record an (embarrassing now) “album” together.
Re:What game are you playing? by arvinsim on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:02PM (#31268892)
It's easy for nerds to get respect from other nerds.

But I agree with him that nerds get little respect from non-nerds.

Re:What game are you playing? by koonsolo on Thursday May 05, 2022 @01:18AM (#31269795)
You are saying that women don't respect successful men? Because in my world, nerds are successful.
Re:What game are you playing? by rektide on Thursday May 05, 2022 @01:47AM (#31269975)
How deep does the respect go? Is it a knowing respect that understands the real strengths & weaknesses of a person's professional persona intimately? Honestly I think it's probably kind of alienating & unideal that so many partners cant really communicate & share effectively what it is they face. We might get respect, but that doesnt mean the other person actually understands the game, or our moves.

There's a whole idea of "workwife," as in, the professional partner that can comprehend & share & commiserate & bond over the "other" 40 hours of our lives. Someome else to co-play the work game with. Because so so rarely are our partners positioned to be able to, no?

The post is about a lot more than respect. We can give each other respect for all kinds of things, all manner of reasons & successes. Respect can says more about the person giving respect than it can the person getting respect. This post is about a different kind of empathy, of understanding people as they want to be be seen, find ways to meet people on their courts & finding ways to be good witnesses to their moves/triumphs.

Re:What game are you playing? by ZephyrBlu on Thursday May 05, 2022 @05:04AM (#31271155)
Women respecting successful men who are nerds is generally them respecting the "successful" bit, not the "nerd" bit.
Re:What game are you playing? by uwagar on Thursday May 05, 2022 @05:48AM (#31271389)
women respect such men as long as those men meet their needs. could be any man, nerd or not.
[dead]
Re:What game are you playing? by certifiedrodent on Thursday May 05, 2022 @07:37AM (#31272062)
This is an incredibly toxic outlook that fails to take into account that women are also fully featured humans with personalities. As a man, you likely get along with people both nerdier and less nerdy than you. Women do the same.
Re:What game are you playing? by chrisweekly on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:09AM (#31272310)
Not to mention that the "nerds" group is not gender-specific.
Re:What game are you playing? by meetups323 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @12:37AM (#31269540)
Does that go both ways? Who do you (presumably nerd) respect? Sales people? PMs? Jocks? Influencers?
Re:What game are you playing? by booleandilemma on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:00AM (#31272219)
And how many points did you complete this sprint, scubbo?
Re:What game are you playing? by scubbo on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:50PM (#31279950)
a) I don't know, I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I'm trusted to simply execute and deliver on the things that I think are worthwhile. They might happen to align with Agile planning processes, that's nice for the manager who happens to be running it, but that's not my concern. b) Even if this was something that I was being concerned with, "working in an environment where my productivity is monitored and measured" is hardly disrespect. Or, at least, it's no more disrespect than every other worker in this capitalist hellscape suffers - and nerds (more accurately, "job roles that are commonly associated with nerdy people") tend to have a much easier and freer professional life than others. So, if you want to say that nerds are disrespected, it's truer to say "workers are disrespected, and many nerds are workers".
Re:What game are you playing? by anarticle on Thursday May 05, 2022 @12:14AM (#31269374)
We’re talking trad nerds, not Allnerds/techbros.
Re:What game are you playing? by flappyeagle on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @09:46PM (#31268381)
You can always decide what to build yourself. Decide your priorities. If you build some thing people want, then great.
Re:What game are you playing? by rektide on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @10:25PM (#31268633)
Tailscale today announced $100M in funding. This feels like what it takes these days, which is terrifying to me. I have no idea what runway that buys but my gods, it is just so epically hard & society has so so so little safety net & support for doing good things, making things happen.

Even basic plans like Build Back Better childcare get wrecked... by Democrats. You're so right but it feels so hopeless & bleak & impossible to try to do good & live at the same time.